40k: In Praise of LVO & Today’s Grimdark Meta

Blow-fly (genus Calliphora)

Hi everybody ! Today’s timely subject is how to deal with some of the top 8 winning lists from the Las Vegas Open 2016 (LVO).

It’s your friendly neighborhood Black Blow Fly swinging through your area again to spread some mischief and malcontent !!! I’ll focus on the weaknesses of the selected armies for review and break down your basic counters.

The top 2 armies were both eldar with some other elements sprinkled in for good measure. While I wasn’t able to attend the LVO this year I did watch many of the games streamed over Twitch played on the top tables throughout each day of the event.

trophy

The LVO Winning Lists

Let’s first look at the top 8 armies:

Alex Harrison 1st Overall – Eldar & Inquisitor (servo skulls)

Eldar CAD
Autarch Sky Runner – Jetbike – Haywire Grenades – Forceshield – The Path of Command
3x Windrider – 3x Scatter Laser
3x Windrider – 3x Scatter Laser
3x Windrider – 2x Scatter Laser

Warhost of the Pale Courts (Forge World Doom of Mymeara)
Farseer – Jetbike
5x Warp Spider – Exarch
5x Warp Spider – Exarch
5x Warp Spider – Exarch

– Disciples of Vaul
Vaul’s Support Battery – Dcannon
Vaul’s Support Battery – DCannon

Wraith Construct
Skatach Wraithknight – Deathshroud Cannon

Aspect Host
5x Warp Spider – Exarch
5x Warp Spider – Exarch
5x Warp Spider – Exarch

Aspect Host
5x Warp Spider – Exarch
5x Warp Spider – Exarch
5x Warp Spider – Exarch

Ordos Xenos Inquisitor (2x servo skulls)

Sean Nayden 2nd Overall – Eldar w. Dark Eldar Corpsethief Claw formation (5x Talos)

Eldar CAD
Autarch
3x Windrider – 3x Scatter Laser
3x Windrider – 3x Scatter Laser
3x Windrider – 3x Scatter Laser
5x Warp Spider – Exarch
Void Shield Generator
Warp Hunter

Aspect Host
8x Swooping Hawk – Exarch
8x Swooping Hawk – Exarch
8x Swooping Hawk – Exarch

Corspethief Claw formation
5x Talos – 5x Splinter Cannon – Ichor Injector

Steve Sisk 3rd Overall – Gladius Strike Force (White Scars)

Alan Bajramovic 4th Overall – Daemons, Flying Circus w. ScreamerStar & Horrors

Alex Fennell 5th Overall – Necrons

Brad Chester 6th Overall – Eldar w. Dark Eldar

Jon Camacho 7th Overall – Necrons

Aaron Aleong 8th Overall (2015 NOVA Champion) – Dark Angels w. Space Wolves

You can find more of these army lists over on the BoK blog if you’re really interested.

Blood of Kittens LVO Top 8 Army Lists

meta

40K Current Meta

Interestingly enough the new Tau didn’t make the cut but placed well overall and it’s important to note they weren’t in full force this year which could be due in part to the nerf bat treatment they received – but that’s another story for a different day.

I attribute Necron high placement mainly due to their uber resiliency… They are extremely difficult to remove which in turn helps them grab and hold objectives.

Warp Spiders were prevalent throughout many of the Eldar armies listed above. I’m sure we will be seeing more Warp Spider spam in upcoming events due to their success last weekend. I also noticed squads of three Windrider jetbikes looks to be the optimal number.

When analyzing the results for the LVO we need to keep in mind that due to their format going second can be pivotal and a modified version of Maelstrom is always in play. Both Swooping Hawks and Warp Spiders are both great units for scoring Maelstrom points.

It just seems apparent that army list construction is one of the top aspects for being successful in a competitive environment. Of course tactics are important too but if you don’t bring the right list it doesn’t really matter. The army list must be constructed to excel in the mission format and also counter top opponents. The semi final match between Alex Harrison and Alan Bajramovic really brings this point home. Alex took the lead in the first three turns inflicting heavy damage then ride it out the final turns and still counter Alan’s plays to overtake him. The daemon army is very strong and has won its share of events but fell a little short in the semi final match.

Another very interesting game was the quarter final match between Steve Sisk and Aaron Aleong. Aaron was the grand champion at NOVA last year winning both the Invitational and Open with his deathstar army which I noticed he had tweaked for the LVO. In the end he just couldn’t counter all of Steve’s objective secured units which again is so important for objective grabbing such as Maelstrom.

One of the things for which I give high praise to the LVO format is that two top armies from previous major events were successfully countered and eliminated – that tells me this format provides good balance and keeps things interesting ! That’s so important too. It could just be me but my final impression was that the psychic phase did not dominate at LVO as it has in the past at other events and I think this is a good thing for the game in general.

RockPaperScissorsLizardSpock_by_iamthemiggy

To Counter These Armies?

Partly the equation for success is to fight fire with fire – highly mobile armies that can lay down blistering levels of fire power each turn and progressively score is key. Of course some of us would like to counter these armies with an army that’s not a mirror list. An important question is what do we do about eldar ? One approach would be to go back and implement more bans and nerfs but me being a tactician I’d rather address it on the table in terms of what I can bring as an effective counter.

Even though Tau did not place in the top 8 I still see lots of potential here and there’s plenty of time to sort it all out. There are many new things being introduced to the game or revamped such as the new Wulfen. So keep it fresh – think outside the box – be willing to try new things. In the end it all comes down to the time invested and true dedication to the game – these will always serve you well.

~ I’d much rather do well based upon my own creativity rather than copy someone else’s army.

  • Mike Linke

    So you say we can counter eldar by either banning units or figuring out how a better list?
    Genius! You have certainly tread new ground with this essay.

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      • Runefyre

        flagged.

  • StingrayP226

    If there was a way to prevent spamming a specific unit over and over and over again I think that would be a good start. Makes no sense that the Eldar would have that many Warp Spiders in an army.

    • An_Enemy

      I think 40k is well past the point of making sense. Calling a specific army out for it this point is rather silly.

    • JP

      That’s easy. Institute the following rules at events-
      Two’s Company, Three’s a Crowd – If it isn’t an Infantry troop choice you can only take it two times.
      The Man with the Golden Gun – Certain powerful units can only be taken once in a list, not just LoWs.

      • TweetleBeetle

        “Certain powerful units” is far too vague and likely to piss more people off than anything.

        • JP

          You’d have to do a proper analysis and make a list, obviously.

          • Mr.Gold

            and exclude certain formations that specifically state you must have X squads of models: e.g. the SIcarian formation from the Skitarrii book requires at least 5 squads of infiltrators/ruststalkers to field…

      • Red_Five_Standing_By

        Yes, because making it so people can only use 2 Tac Squads is a great idea.

        Your solution is a cudgel that hurts weaker armies as much or more than stronger armies.

        • JP

          Reading comprehension FAIL.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            You shouldn’t use contractions 😉

            Even then, Eldar would still spam Jetbikes with Scatterlasers.

          • JP

            Dammit, you are right of course. They would just take two squads of 10 instead multiple little squads. Still, at least that would limit the number of targets they could shoot at every turn.

    • Mr_Pickles

      As I understand it, Fluff considerations doesn’t matter in the context of a tournament. It’s goal is to see who “could” win in the vast sea of 40k rules. There doesn’t appear to be any other contexts and/or considerations in play here. It’s just, “Here’s the 40k rules, codexes, etc… Now who will turn out on top?” If there was a campaign-style limitation(s), such as if you take Codex: Space Marines, you can only have these chapters; this force org.; these detachments, these units; etc…
      Then you would have a competition of “Your stuck with this, make it work”, instead of, “How to stack your list so you win” which seems to me to make the game irrelevant. The current tournament “Meta” has the list building as the focus of the tournament, not the game itself.
      I could be wrong, it’s been a long time since I’ve played in a tournament setting like LVO, but articles like this give this impression to me.

      • Mr.Gold

        I am currently participating in a campaign in my local GW store that is narrative themed, so the only restriction is that you cannot ally accross the factions listed below (you can ally within the factions though). this will probably cut dwon on the uber combo’s people may have available…

        The Factions are:

        -The Adeptus Astartes (All Imperial Space Marines unless otherwise stated)

        -Armies of Terra (Sisters of Battle, Astra Militarum, Grey Knights, Officio
        Assasinorum, Inquisitors)

        -Armies of Mars (Imperial Knight Households, Cult Mechanicus, Skitarii)

        -Chaos Incursion (Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Daemons)

        -The Children of the Stars (All Eldar)

        -The Xenos Threat (Orks, Tyranids, Necrons)

        -The Balance (Tau)

      • GooeySnail

        Bingo

      • nurglitch

        It’s an ‘open’ style of event. I’m more inclined to think that competitive 40k needs to have a fixed list format available as well, so that people can take army-building out of the mix and focus on player skill.

    • Spacefrisian

      Funny that there has been a way to prevent spamming multiple of the same units for ages, its called Highlander.

  • Necro Alienerd

    But I thought Eldar never won tournaments and everyone complaining about Eldar were just rubbish, right internet?

    • Pyrrhus of Epirus

      they won their first major tourney since the codex dropped, while eldar players have been bathing in tears of forum losers from day one, despite having won nothing before this last weekend. They are obviously a top codex and only an idiot would argue otherwise just like the other handful of top codexes.

    • Spacefrisian

      No you got that mixed up with Dark Eldar and Chaos marines, even with video proof of those winning they never win….somehow.

      • An_Enemy

        DE have never won a significant tournament outside of as allies. Never even been in the top 25 afaik. You really like to bring up friendly games on YouTube despite that being an incredibly miniscule player pool as if Skarredcast = the rest of the planet. Again, I’ve seen those batreps too. He’s generally clubbing baby seals that make dumb play choices. Not to mention thats he plays Eldar allies and the DE portions of his list keep getting smaller and smaller. Its not just him btw.

        Look, I play DE. I win most of my games. That doesn’t mean the army’s strong. Proxy some DE in a game for yourself. Unless you’re a good/great player and you have taken the knocks necessary to learn the things you NEED to do to win with DE you will get annihilated by any half decent player using a mid or top tier army. If you’re not playing Maestrom or relic you’re just going to be removing models. If you roll kill points you might as well just concede before deploying.

        When every good player you talk to says an army sucks maybe you should consider that they known what they’re talking about?. Not say, “well I saw this guy on YouTube that plays the same five friends over and over win so clearly the majority of the 40k community is lying and/or stupid.”

  • JP

    How in the heck is the LVO considered a respectable event by ANYONE? Seven of the top 8 lists were either super spammy (all 3 eldar incidentally, spamming Windriders + Warp Spiders) or using nothing but detachments plus formations. The only list that didn’t look completely netlisted was the Dark Angel list in 8th place. It’s not a tournament of skill. It’s Super Spam Slapfest.

    • David Brett Walker IV

      They also have casual events. It’s a competition…. Not a friendly pick up match.

      • Zingbaby

        Exactly, this is serious life and death stuff; it’s not like we’re playing games or anything.

        • David Brett Walker IV

          Some people enjoy that type of competition. I give my veteran sargeant plasma pistols and power swords. To each their own.

          • Zingbaby

            Alex Harrison is a well known jerk. Jerks like that type of play. But it’s not fair to call it “competitive” because it’s not – it’s playing with a crutch.

          • David Brett Walker IV

            They are competing. I don’t enjoy that type of game but some do. I want to hit the lvo for the casual bracket and play some scenarios.

            I play with really nice guys that are able to field horrific lists, but will tone down without beingasked against weaker players.

            I can aappreciate both

          • Alex harrison

            Oh really, and where did you hear that nonsense from, the internet? Cool storry bro!

          • David Brett Walker IV

            #shotsfired

          • Zingbaby

            Yeah, pretty much bro. But with that list I’d love to hear your rebuttal. You can’t blame GW for your reputation.

          • Alex harrison

            Rebuttal for taking a perfectly valid list? Not my fault GW allows me to spam. Same as anything, spamming guardman, spamming iron priests, spamming Riptides, who cares? If its legal just play? I played against a dude with 12 units of 3 scatbikes!! I didnt cry about it, its a legal list so you just play. Its like going up to Isis with a knife and them shooting you in the leg then saying “OMG WHY DID YOU DO THAT…SO UNFAIR”

          • Zingbaby

            Exactly, ISIS is well known for sportsmanship and ‘not being a jerk’. My mistake, you’re in fact a hero and this isn’t a game and the other person’s experience doesn’t matter.

          • Alex harrison

            That has nothing to do with you moaning on spamming units but ok! I will take into consideration my opponents feelings next time by bringing a box of tissues to hand over with my army list.

          • Zingbaby

            Thanks for making my point. In the US at least we don’t have any laws that prevent you from being an a-hole. But that’s not a free pass, if you act like an a-hole, you are in fact, an a-hole and you don’t get to blame the laws.

            You can’t blame GW for your reputation bro.

          • David Brett Walker IV

            Dude seriously just stop. No one is forcing you to play against him. It’s a legal list. Hes playing the game and having fun. People want a challenge. That’s why you go to a tournament. I will play against any list, any time. If that’s not fun for you , don’t play that way but don’t insult people who enjoy it

          • Zingbaby

            No one is forcing you read on my man. And if Alex wants to keep commenting he should, and you should, expect others to also comment. That’s how this thing works.

            Besides I’m not to blame for his reputation.

          • Runefyre

            But we should all strive to keep our conversation civil and enjoyable. 🙂

          • Zingbaby

            Lol really? So being a jerk is allowed and encouraged ‘only’ at tournaments then? I blame GW if anyone is insulted.

          • Runefyre

            You can’t blame GW for insults perceived by people from your posts, it was your decision to speak in the first place. Just because someone else is being a jerk (and that is up to personal opinion), doesn’t mean one has to respond in kind. If Alex wants to play min-maxed lists at tournaments, good for him, and good for the community that enjoys it.

          • Zingbaby

            Oh I don’t even disagree really. Just as it was Alex’s decision to post in the comments and yours now.

          • JP

            Well I hope Alex is still paying attention because I’ve got his song right here. It goes a little something like this….

            I Wanna Win!

            I want to win!(win!)

            I want to win!(win!)

            I want to win!(win!)

            I want to win!(win!)

            Turn it down you say

            But all I got to say to you is time and time again I say No!

            No! No! No!

            Tell me not to play

            Well, all I got to say to when you tell me not to play I say No!

            No! No! No!

            So, if you ask me why I like the way I play it

            There’s only one thing I can say to you

            I want to win!(win!)

            I want to win!(win!)

            I want to win!(win!)

            I want to win!(win!)

            There’s a feelin’ that

            I get from nothin’ else and there ain’t nothin’ in the world that makes me go!

            Go! Go! Go!

            Turn the power up

            I’ve waited for so long so I could hear my favorite song so, let’s go!

            Go! Go! Go!

            When it’s like this I feel the music shootin’ through me

            There’s nothin’ else that I would rather do

            I want to win!(win!)

            I want to win!(win!)

            I want to win!(win!)

            I want to win!(win!)

            I want to win!(win!)

            Win!(Win!)

            Win!(Win!)

            I want to win!(win!)

            Win!(Win!)

            Win!(Win!)

            I want to win!(win!)

            Win!(Win!)

            Win!(Win!)

            I want to win!(win!)

            Win!(Win!)

            Win!(Win!)

            I want to win!

            I want to win!(win!)

            I want to win!(win!)

            I want to win!(win!)

            I want to win!(win!)

            I want to win!(win!)

            Win!(Win!)

            Win!(Win!)

            I want to win!(win!)

            Win!(Win!)

            Win!(Win!)

            I want to win!(win!)

            Win!(Win!)

            Win!(Win!)

            I want to win!(win!)

            Win!(Win!)

            Win!(Win!)

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWXhFVqNgQs

          • David Brett Walker IV

            Everyone who is calling him a jerk; is he a bad sportsman or are you upset he’s bringing an optimized list?

      • JP

        Competition would indicate some form of skill is being tested. What’s the skill? The ability to click Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V?

        • David Brett Walker IV

          Unit placement, maneuvering and counter play for objectives, with quite a bit of luck involved. Again, these aren’t fluffy fun lists, they are built to win.

          • JP

            With armies spamming units capable of going across half the board in one turn? Placement and maneuvering aren’t exactly deciding factors. With other armies a bad deployment or positioning has consequences. With these armies it’s “I can put them wherever and just correct it later.”

          • David Brett Walker IV

            This comes down to bad design as much as anything

          • I would bet you $1,000 that you wouldn’t sniff top 8 running Alex’s list. To say it doesn’t require skill is just ignorance

          • JP

            Of course I wouldn’t. I HATE Eldar. I’d microwave his army instead of going to the event.

          • David Brett Walker IV

            What do you play?

          • JP

            The only armies I have current codices for is Orks and Chaos Marines with a few Daemons to sprinkle on, I haven’t gotten a new book for my Salamanders or Necrons yet, or the Daemonkin book so I haven’t played any of that at ALL this edition so far. Guess which end of the power spectrum I’m on? And honestly, I’m kind of happy about it. I’m rather enjoying the challenge of playing an underdog army all the time. I think it’s making me a better player.

          • JP

            Here’s a more serious answer. I know that Eldar requires a certain set of skills to play. They require a certain mindset and good ability for details because their units are very rock, paper, scissors in nature. It’s something I’m admittedly not very good at, so I would be bad Eldar player (but I’ve got other reasons for hating them). Now then, they USED to be a glass hammer. Used to be. They were powerful, but had some weaknesses that could be exploited. Now however, they’ve been given a whole new set of extra rules for no additional points on top of what they already had plus some truly silly things in addition that have made Eldar into an absurdly brutal army that win just by taking multiple copies of one or two units. It doesn’t require anywhere near the level of skill and finesse to win with Eldar now that it did in 6th or 5th edition.
            So let’s flip this around. You think he’d make top 8 with an army from a less powerful codex?

          • Honestly, that’s a fairer response than my original. No arguments that Eldar are very strong – I’m of the camp that they’re still top.

            I don’t know Alex well, or his past armies, but in response to your question, I would say, in general, I’d give him a shot assuming he was as familiar with whatever other list he brought. Obviously this depends on how much less powerful we’re talking. Daemons, Necrons, or Space Marines I think he could; Orks or IG, not so much.

            Point is, he’s a good player who does well and wins events, which is why he’s been on his countries ETC team for a few years. I picked 50% of the top 8 before LVO, and while I didn’t pick Alex, I considered him. I was able to get as many as I did because good players win events; part of that is bringing a strong list from a strong codex (or several codices), but it’s largely skill too. There were 38 other Eldar Players who didn’t win make the top 8.

        • Red_Five_Standing_By

          Welcome to the high end tournament play for literally every wargame and card game.

    • Crevab

      If you want a tournament of skill, good luck getting people to agree on rolling back a few editions or rewriting the game from the ground on up.

      • Zingbaby

        I’m curious which edition you think they should start with? You could always win with cheesy jerk lists. But – ground up sounds about right.

        • Red_Five_Standing_By

          Or you could just play a game explicitly designed for use in tournament play.

          But, yeah, a nice re-write of the core game wouldn’t be bad. There is a lot of rule bloat that the game doesn’t really need. I don’t think anyone wants to drop down to AoS level of rules simplicity but cutting the core rulebook down by a third would go a long way to making it more streamlined and efficient.

      • David Brett Walker IV

        This. 40k could really benefit from a tighter ruleset

        • grim_dork

          That may very well be true for competitive event play, but as a game of toy soldiers between likeminded opponents the 7th edition ruleset works really well.
          Round these parts we’re having a great time with it.

        • Richard Mitchell

          True, but not really. GW has not designed the game to be a tournament game. Which why people making rule changes, banning units or models, or in some cases lists from tournaments to make the game competitive is sad. GW makes a great narrative game but without direct company support for the scene, there really isn’t much legitimacy to the winners of these tournaments as you might find in other games. The best you can say is, I am the best at a game that had to be modified, with a list that wasn’t banned. So play casual and have fun. Don’t even get angry at the guys who win whatever their personality may or may not be. They are just taking advantage of the flaws in a game that was not designed to be a tournament game.

    • An_Enemy

      And NOVA was dominated by deathstars with psychic power shenanigans…what’s you point? That stacking your chances of rolling five in Telepathy is a skill? Or that buying a few specific kits to get a ton of free gear/rules/units and a points advantage is pro?

      40k is a mess. GW left tournament organizers to their own devices and you’re mad that they’re struggling to balance it for competition?

      • Zingbaby

        Tournaments have always been this.

        GW didn’t ‘leave TOs to their devices’ they simply NEVER had a good tournament game. It’s the tournament crowd that keeps pushing this ridiculous version of “skill” that sadly bleeds into regular play everywhere.

        • An_Enemy

          Fifth edition was fairly balanced for competitive play until Space Wolves/Grey Knights(the worst offender)/Necrons dropped. A bit boring mind you, but Ehh.

          I can’t speak for earlier Editions as I have no experience with them.

          • Zingbaby

            It certainly was not. If you played one of the 3 top tier armies (just like now) it may have seemed that way – but in reality, for everyone else it was totally unbalanced.

          • David Brett Walker IV

            Leaf blower and BAmech would like a word.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            Rose tinted glasses.

            Early 5th edition was coming out of the era of reasonable, less crazy armies. Most had a mix of good and bad units but on the whole there was a balance between the codexes. Not every codex was viable but pretty much any codex from 4th edition was considered playable. As 5th edition ramped up, each codex release became more and more powerful, each trying to top what came before. Realistically the only army to lose in 5th edition were the Tyranids.

            When people think back on how nice 5th edition was, what they are really remembering is how nicely the rules of 5th edition interacted with the codexes from 4th edition.

            Even then, 5th edition was still a broken system that had a ton of exploitable loopholes. Remember wound allocation? Dear god that was horrible.

          • Lewis Everitt

            5th was a great ruleset(with the exception of wound allocation) ruined by some poorly thought out codexes.

          • Fifth edition was dominated by leaf blower IG, Draigowing and Space Wolves plus it was the metal bawks edition.

          • An_Enemy

            You guys are kind of just repeating what I said. The difference is that I think having four or five top tier armies was fairly balanced competitively when compared to 7th ed’s three.

          • Daniil Osudin

            well 40k has about 5-6 right now: eldar, necrons, tau, space marines/dark angels and daemons. Ad mech can also compete to a point in a war convocation, but still this is a bit too few 🙁

            Although there is some variety unlike the 6th edition where each army had 1 build that was good…

      • JP

        I’m not mad. It’s funny. It’s funny that anybody could think of these “competitions” as actual competitions anymore. That’s all.

        • An_Enemy

          I think the fact that the majority of people playing in a tournament are just there to play a lot of games against people/armies they’d never play otherwise gets lost in the race to pass judgements. We’re talking about almost 300 people in the 40k tournament, but the only lists that are ever passed around to people that don’t attend are the top ten or so.

          There are also the same names at the top tables a lot of the time. Creating almost a Russian nesting doll-esque meta within the meta.

          • JP

            That’s why people always came to local events at my FLGS. Just to play more games against people they don’t usually play against.
            Realistically these “competitions” should be called
            “Social Gaming Events featuring a Pissing Contest Between the Biggest WAAC Jerks in the Corner Over There.”

          • Orodruin

            And yet here you are whining about them, and there they are playing and having fun while completely ignorant of your existence. Sure sucks to be them.

          • JP

            I don’t care what they think, but YOU walked into this one.
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csPPqdbcVwM

          • You win the Internet cookie !

          • Orodruin

            Yesssss. *munch munch*

            There is no substance to this cookie. I’ve won nothing!

          • JP

            They’re just empty calories dude.
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqL7jyrXhLs

          • o cool 1 – that is the cosmic nature of the cookie …

            :p

          • David Brett Walker IV

            We run narratives and fun leagues too. Working and optimization of your army doesn’t appeal to you. That’s okay. But your “stop liking what I don’t like” attitude is silly.

    • Krargan

      It has to be thought of in context. It is a respectable event in the mindset of tournament play. The definitions of Respectable, in this regard, being Large enough, popular enough and with enough publicity to garner attention for placing highly. Respectable for the “tournament players” is something far apart from the respectable for those of us that like narrative and creativity. Different strokes… as they say.

  • TweetleBeetle

    The Corspethief Claw formation was played by an Eldar player at the 2015 Adepticon by a guy who was wrecking people. It’s a surprisingly deadly formation.

    • An_Enemy

      It’s a bit crap in a pure Dark Eldar or Coven army. There’s simply not enough of a threat from the other units available to force your opponent to not focus fire them to death before they manage to do anything.

      It’s ok in an Eldar army because there are a lot more viable units to divide your opponent’s attention and resources. Even if you do lose the Corpseclaw early you have your entire army of shooty

      A Wraithknight and a Corpseclaw with just about anything else filling the ObSec duties can be quite a nightmare.

  • “So keep it fresh – think outside the box – be willing to try new things.” – that’s basically the content of the article. Brilliant.

  • Red_Five_Standing_By

    I am continually shocked by people’s shock of how competitive lists spam units.

    We’ve been dealing with this for more than 10 years and people still act like it is a new occurrence.

  • Rob Oliphant

    Play no allies…

  • Terminus

    I love how all the Eldar lists are “Pick 2-3 units from your codex. Spam them. Win.”

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      To be fair, there isn’t a bad unit in their codex.

  • Crablezworth

    Guys, you’re just playing apoc in a tournament at this point.

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      That’s what 40k is now. Tiny apocalypse games.

  • disqus_dcbZY0MiwM

    ‘Of course tactics are important too but if you don’t bring the right list it doesn’t really matter.’ IMO if actually playing the game comes in second to the list you created then the game is in a sorry state of affairs.

    • The point is you must have the right tools to get the job done.

    • Daniil Osudin

      well it is like that in most games. Take warmachine for example, the game is mostly played competitively, but there are still top lists, yes they are more varied and all armies can compete (external balance), but if you dont build a good list, you will lose.

      Same for magic, the deck maters a lot, etc.

  • Countdiscount

    Why do we keep seeing the same names around the top of the rankings? If 40K was so bad (read: noncompetitive), anyone should be able to be compete for the top spots in these tournaments.

  • sethmo

    Why isnt mass msu back in fashion yet?

    Also anyone else feel like 1850 is too much inthis meta?

    • Daniil Osudin

      it is with space marine battle companies having free rhinos, same for dark angels

      • David Brett Walker IV

        I built a battle company at 1250.

        • Daniil Osudin

          how does that contradict what i said?

          OP asked why isn’t mass msu back in fashion? i answered that it is back in fashion with space marines and dark angels…

          • David Brett Walker IV

            More of a comment on 1850 being too many points If anything I think it’s worse at 1250. that’s a lot of transports and bodies for a 4 x 4 table.

  • Adam Upson

    I’m curious as to why the standard for tournaments isn’t built around taking one single CAD from one Codex. Now I appreciate that 40k comes with enough army “building” options to satisfy a productive beaver in an Ikea stock room; but just looking at the game system if players wanted to measure their skill against one another wouldn’t a more strict policy like this show who has more skill rather than who dares bring the most spammy list?

    I’m never going to be a tournament player, I’m not here to argue the mindset or how strong/weak a particular codex is, just curious as to why this structure isn’t more common place.

    • Daniil Osudin

      even then you could spam enough. In a single CAD you can take 6 eldar scatter laser jetbike squads, 3 warp spider squads, wraith knight and some wraithguard in wave serpents…

      If we want to measure skill purely, then all players should have the same list, even then it all depends on luck of who goes first/second, which would determine who has advantage depending what this list/mission favours… Even in chess there is a tiny advantage to the side that goes first and there all movements are more precise and there are a lot less different possibilities than in 40k, so yeah…

    • Oh gAwd…

      Here we go with the oldhammer again – le sigh