Industry: The Top 5 Miniatures Games Are…

money-tug-of-war

Based on U.S. Sales Data – Lets take a look at the Top 5 “Non-Collectible Miniatures Games” for the Fall of 2015 – There are some BIG upsets!

When ICv2 posts Industry news it’s a good idea to take a look, as it’s based on retailer sales data:

Sales-Up-Prices-Down-300x225 via ICv2

“This chart of the ICv2 “Top 5 Non-Collectible Miniature Games” shows U.S. sales for the Fall season, September through December.  To develop this chart, we interviewed distributors, manufacturers, and retailers, then aggregated the information into a single ranking.”

1: Star Wars X-Wing
Fantasy Flight Games

2: Warhammer
Games Workshop

3: Star Wars Armada
Fantasy Flight Games

4: Warmachine
Privateer Press

5: Star Trek Attack Wing
WizKids/NECA

 

A quick note – we’re not 100% sure on if “Warhammer”  means Warhammer 40,000, Warhammer: Age of Sigmar or Both. Or if “Warmachine” refers to only Warmachine or if it also includes sales for Hordes as well. However you read it, one game has skyrocketed to the top…Or should I say went to “.5 past Lightspeed.”

falcon-horz

More interesting is to compare this to last year’s top 5 to see the trends in the industry:

Top 5 Miniatures Games of 2014

How does this line up with what you are seeing in your local gaming group?  

 

  • Dave

    The pretty much reflects my experience. I don’t play it, but Imperial Assault seems to get a lot of play right now also. Surprised it’s not on there.

  • Andersp90 .

    Oh god how I hope that one of the other companys will buy GW and turn it around…

    • ZeeLobby

      That would be awesome. A tight ruleset in the Warhammer universe. I think i’d cry.

      • Tim Kennedy

        And then you realise that there would be rules/upgrades made available only through tournaments etc if FFG got their hands on it

        • ZeeLobby

          why only through tournaments? Pretty sure the FAQ is free and available on their site, and the rules actually had thought put into them from the start. I don’t see why, if tournaments add additional rules/clarifications, you couldn’t use the same for your home games. Hell people do all of that now with other systems.

        • ted1138

          What rules/upgrades would those be? FFG haven’t done that with any of their games yet.

          • Severius_Tolluck

            yeah all they have is some missions which i think are downloadable, and beyond that its all alternate art work for pre existing cards. I suppose if you want to go that far, they allow some tourney grand champions aide them in making new cards etc.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah, clearly a fanboy with no clue :/

          • Chris. K Cook

          • ZeeLobby

            LoL, I don’t even play X-Wing. I definitely don’t run around spewing lies to try to be right tho.

          • Chris. K Cook

            It’s a conspiracy!

        • Chris. K Cook

          Have you seen the horridness they are about to inflict on L5R?

        • NagaBaboon

          Wut? Upgrades are normally only available through ‘expansion’ packs and are occasionally given away as prizes for tourneys, not sure what you mean?

      • georgelabour

        FFG’s track record with other company’s wargames isn’t exactly a stellar one.

        Remember AT-43, Confrontation, Wings of War, Dust tactics? No..well that’s FFG’s doing.

        And if their RPG lines are anything to go by the book bloat would not only be massive but perpetually late for anyone not in Australia.

        As for power creep…

        • ZeeLobby

          The point is that they FAQ and adjust things. That’s good enough for me. One could argue that those games struggled because they’re just not that interesting or very niche to begin with honestly. At this point Warhammer has a huge namesake, not as big as Star Wars, but adequate enough that they’d have little trouble keeping it going. I mean just the fact that GW has still yet to FAQ blatantly wrong things in the Daemons codex is just pathetic, I’d take anything else at this point. People around me are beginning to stop playing. And I don’t want that to happen.

          • Richard Mitchell

            I agree, it is not that GW is not perfect that keeps me from being a customer its that they killed official company support after 3rd. I remember when they had updated faqs, forums, A CUSTOMER SERVICE RULES PHONE LINE! And their website actually had articles. I built a Relictors force from their White Dwarf mag. It is sad and enlightening to see other companies compete merely by continuing the good business practices GW abandoned.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            That help line was junk and completely useless in a day and age with internet. Plus, I know people who called about the same issue and got two different answers. Silliness.

            Plus, all major tournaments did not take the phone call rulings seriously. If GW did not put it in print, it was not accepted.

            Company run forums really aren’t needed anymore. Over time, they will dwindle for the really big companies. It is easier to have a page of Facebook and allow the fans to create their own forums.

            Articles would not have disappeared if they generated the kind of traffic that justified their continuance. I liked them but I am sure most people looked at a few and shrugged off the rest.

            it’s not that different than GW not including Bat Reps and Paitning guides in codexes now-a-days.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            the phone help line was great, both pre and post internet. Now the internet is here they shouldn’t need it I agree, but they have just abandoned FAQs and Errata entirely. Hardly better.

          • ZeeLobby

            I mean just cause the internet exists doesn’t mean they should abandon it completely. They could have offered chat, or something else…

          • Richard Mitchell

            Except when you get into a rules dispute and are able to solve it in less then two minutes with the power of your phone and widespread internet. Then official forums with responses from the people who designed the rules are really nice. If you are a die hard “I only play GW products” fan then you might not realize how awesome that experience is but I couldn’t imagine going back to an intense RAI or RAW argument and then resigning to a roll off. I can’t remember the last time I played a Star Wars or Warmahordes, and got into a rule dispute and had one person walk away feeling cheated by the experience and the other feeling guilty.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            I can’t remeber the last time I saw a petulant man child walk away from a table in frustration, bitterly complaining about how he was cheated.

            If those are the kinds of people you play with then, I am sorry for you.

            I cannot honestly say when the last time I had a rules debate in 40k. I am not competitive though. If I were, you better believe I would not play 40k, unless a fan made FAQ was involved, which is more comprehensive and through than any official GW FAQ ever was.

            Edit: actually, the last time I saw an argument was at a warmahordes tourney where two grown men got into an argument about the placement of a model who charged. It’s arms stuck over the side of the base and could not sqeeze into the place next to the enemy model thanks to the proximity to other models. The players agreed to scoot it in sideways.

            Next turn, the opponent forgot about the placement and performed his whole turn under the assumption the model was sideways. When he realized it was supposed to be in a different spot, he demanded to start his whole turn over. I swear they would have dine to blows if not for everyone awkwardly stating at them…

            But that happens in every game when people play too seriously.

          • georgelabour

            So you’re just going to ignore their actual track record because you don’t care for GW….

            The track record that has seen them drop support for multiple IPs at the drop of a hat as they move onto the next cash cow…

            Sounds legit.

          • ZeeLobby

            Comparing DUST to Warhammer 40k is a failed comparison to begin with. As well as any of those other games. None of them have an even close to comparable background, player base, etc. as Warhammer, even in their prime. As FFG proves again and again every year, they’ve remained profitable, something GW not only struggles, but fails to do repeatedly in recent years. It’s kind of laughable that you’d use those as a clear sign that FFG wouldn’t do well with the Warhammer IP.

          • georgelabour

            GW has managed to keep most of their IPs going for decades. Games may have changed and a line or two discontinued but for the most part they’ve done very well without suckling on someone else’s teat.

            FFG buys up other company’s IPS, milks them for a quick buck, and then screws over its customers by dropping them once the easy money is made. They have done this repeatedly.

            That many of their card games, and RPGs are good (40k ones are a blast) does not change their track record with war games. Nor their history managing other people’s IPs.

            That you don’t care about these relevant facts because they’ve yet to drop Star Wars does not in anyway change things.

          • Richard Mitchell

            Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit. Star Wars may not be FFG’s IP but they did a good job executing an excellent game system for it. Its like, I don’t care if George Lucas is directing Star Wars or not, or Gene Roddenberry, Star Trek. If the story is good, the scenes are tight, the dialog is well written, and it is faithful to the lore then I will still enjoy a good movie. IF your lore is interesting BUT the scenes are crap, the story has holes, an the dialog is stilted, then you still have a bad movie. The same principles apply to games. Ya, 40k’s lore has potential but when everything fails you still end up with a bad game.

          • ZeeLobby

            Don’t even play X-Wing. But I’ve stopped supporting GW, cause I know where they’re headed, and I’d personally rather have anyone else at the helm. They’ve managed to drive their games into abismal trash. They’re too big of a boat to ever go down, but I’m not going to bucket out water to keep it upright. They literally said F U to gamers and I just find it shocking that so many people still defend them. I honestly wouldn’t care if FFG ran it for 6 months as long as it was playable. Id rather pay and play one good board game once, then repeatedly play a dismal board game continuously.

          • georgelabour

            So basically in your perfect world of gaming it doesn’t matter who’s screwing things up so long as it’s not GW.

          • ZeeLobby

            My perfect gaming world is filled with multiple companies who at least try to cater to gamers. If GW tried again I’d be totally behind them. Instead they openly said that don’t care about gamers, and are a “model” company (whose primary sales are to gamers) that decided that by not backing up rule support as a priorityeans they can just release whatever they want whenever they want and shrug if it makes the game unenjoyable.

        • Chris. K Cook

          Australia just won’t get the books randomly…

        • Chris. K Cook

          Or they will demand you chuck out all you minis and buy new ones.

          Hello there L5R players…

          • georgelabour

            Confrontation players were put in the same boat.

            Then FFG towed the boat out into shark and squid infested waters, doused it all in kerosene, lit it on fire, and squirted lemon juice into the eyes of the survivors.

          • Chris. K Cook

            WFRP is still curled up in a fetal position in the shower after what they did to it….

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            That is hardcore.

          • Chris. K Cook

            What happened there I didn’t pay that much attention.

          • georgelabour

            Not only did they switch over to a rule set that encourage more models (like 40k), they changed to pre painted plastics that were a serious drop in quality.

            Oh, and they changed the basing and literally RAW required all models to use this new basing type despite it being entirely different from the old ones. Basically the thing angryhammer players accuse GW of trying to do…even though they don’t.

            Then they discarded a HUGE number of unit stats with the promise of updating them in future army books…that never got made.

            Now some of that was Rackham’s fault but FFG WAS their US representative. But instead of trying to get things done they just held massive ‘get into the game’ sales before promptly dropping the line entirely and moving onto the next cash cow.

            They did the same thing with AT-43, Dust, and Wings of War. When the Star wars license comes due they’ll like do the same there.

          • Chris. K Cook

            “they just held massive ‘get into the game’ sales before promptly dropping the line entirely and moving onto the next cash cow.”

            Never! They’d NEVER do that. That would be like publishing the last two books of an RPG only in the USA and then replacing it with a terrible new edition.

    • Cergorach

      Like they did with all their other miniature games…
      Confrontation 4, AT-43, Dust, Mutant Chronicles, etc.

      Don’t kid yourself, X-Wing/Armada/Imperial Assault is selling so well because of the SW IP. Descent has left the charts years ago and even at it’s peak it didn’t do as well as Imperial Assault…

      There’s a reason why FFG is playing with popular IPs, they sell pure because it’s THAT IP, if it’s a decent game, bonus! If it’s great, that is like winning the lottery….

      While FFG has done great things with the WFB/40k RPGs and even some of the GW board games, keep in mind that it was initially the folks from Green Ronin that started the WFRP 2E rules, Talisman was initially done by Black Industries (a GW company)…

      Don’t expect blindly that FFG will do a better job with 40k/WFB then GW is doing… FFG would need to generate insane amounts of sales if they bought GW (through Asmodee)…

      • ZeeLobby

        A monkey with typewriter could do a better job with the rules, and the universe and IP is already gold.

        • DeadlyYellow

          Fair chance army updates would be more frequent and consistent.

      • Andersp90 .

        I have to agree with ZeeLobby (although I think that the 40K fluff is doing ok). There clearly is no playtesting before a new codex is released, and 7th edition added more randomness + a huge nerf to assault armies – something nobody had asked for. And as long as GW keeps ignoring the crys of it’s customers, the are bound to fail. And im pretty sure they will. 🙁

        • ZeeLobby

          That’s what kills me. I LOVE the fluff! But the game is just dreadful at this point. I still read every HH book, but I just don’t want to play much anymore. It’s just crazy that they can’t see that this is what happened to Fantasy before it nose-dived. Unplaytested updates and randomness.

          • Richard Mitchell

            True, once I moved to different games after 4th I realized something that veteran GW players tolerate and new players wont. If you are playing a game that needs different comps to be played “fairly” you playing a broken game. I hear arguments about how the game is casual but I play my new games with tournament and casual scenes and I have to burst everyone’s bubble by saying tight rules make a casual game more enjoyable. I can’t remember the last time I argued a considerable amount of time over Warmachine especially between accessing official ruling on the forums through my phone or the updated rules in Warroom. But when I played 4th-5th 40k, me and my friends got in heated debates during play all the time. It took up most of the game.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            Depends on how tight the rules are. I know a lot of people who love the Warmachine universe and actively play in the RPGs and read all the fluff but can’t stand the game.

            I think you need to find a happy balance, especially for something as big and crazy as Warhammer is.

          • ZeeLobby

            True. I’d argue that many people who hate the game just don’t enjoy the competitive people the game attracts. That said, my gaming group plans to play fluffy fun games of Warmahordes (2v2s, custom scenarios, etc.). If it’s cause of rule complexity, I can’t help them there, Warhammer is already overly complex, and not in a good way…

          • Richard Mitchell

            Most of the hate I hear from people who tried to Warmachine comes from their expectations and it is justified. They want it to be a miniature wargame in a classical since that stems from H.G. Wells “Little Wars” and the historical wargames after it. Unit vs unit combat with tanks and a couple of exemplary individuals (some companies like Warlord, Mantic, and Flames of War are starting to make meaningful strides in revamping this lineage of wargaming).

            But Warmachine is not a wargame in a classical sense and neither is Malifaux. Instead Warmachine has more in common with Chess and Malifaux with Poker. That said, X-Wing does a great job feeling like you are in a high stakes dog fight without being overly complicated and while remaining tactically deep, which is something very difficult to pull off in game design.

          • Banbanvalo

            I hate this argument. Warmachine is broken as well and no one will admit it. I understand it has a lot of pros, but it is not balanced from a normal perspective. In most WM tournaments, you bring multiple lists to avoid hard counters. This system is fun for some, but it is an artificial mechanism to provide “balance”. Is there such a thing as a take all comers list in WM? The answer is no. It’s no different than how broken Warhammer is, and WM fanboys refuse to accept this. I played the game for close to a decade until I just got fed up with being shouted at for supporting multiple game systems that I loved. How about we all like what we like, quit screaming at each other, and just play our favorite games.

          • mikethefish

            You are operating from the standpoint that a “take all comers” is necessary to have a balanced game, when this is patently false. You have a clear bias which is very obvious to see, which is ironic considering that’s what you are accusing all the PP “fanboys” of having.

          • Banbanvalo

            I really don’t have a bias. I’m just tired of people arguing over the most insignificant things. It smells terrible on both sides of the farm, but both parties want to pretend their land smells like roses. As long as humans design games, there will never be a perfect one because what we like in games is entirely subjective and any rule system can be manipulated and broken. Some much more easily than others, I admit.
            I will say my playing experience between the games is vastly skewed though. I’m in the rare minority to have about a perfect setup to avoid the BS train that 40k has become. I have a gaming area in my home and me and the same 6-8 guys have been getting together to play for 15+ years, so we don’t have to deal with all of the shenanigans and hyper competitive, netlisting nonsense that the casual 40k community has become. We just get together, get hammered, and throw dice around. On the other hand, I had to do a lot of pick up Warmachine, which doesn’t really jive with my playing style. I still loved the game and it’s sculpts, I still weep over how much pinning had to be done on the old Cygnar jacks haha. It’s just as I’ve gotten older, I just got pushed out by how vitriolic some younger members of the hobby have become. 40k players can be much worse when it comes to spreading that vitriol, I just am never around them unless it’s on the internet.
            I didn’t mean to offend, and I absolutely apologize if I did. Balance does not mean a take on all comers list at all, but the multi list thing is not absolute balance like most insist. That’s all I meant. I love a hard counter system, it’s a favorite of mine in video games. It’s just not my favorite thing in tabletop games, but it’s become a huge part of WM over the years. The PP fanboy comment was dumb, I admit, I just wish we could all get together in appreciation of a niche hobby instead of tearing each other apart over such minor differences.

          • Richard Mitchell

            No is saying that systems ARE perfect, the problem with GW is that they don’t attempt to offer support to make the rules better and stay involved directly with the community to create rule balance. Their response is always “stop bothering us and just do whatever” which is something many companies, PP included, don’t do. IF you want an official ruling not only are many of these companies constantly updating cards, FAQS, and refining league and tournament formats but their official forums have company sponsored rulings for rule related questions and even lore (the ever popular lighting the Seacat signal is a popular example of this). Not being perfect is one thing, being openly hostile or indifferent to your customer base is another.

          • Richard Mitchell

            Here you go buddy I hope this helps you. And WM fanboys, funny thing is I met more people who play WM AND another system by a different company than people who play 40k AND anything that is not GW.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

          • Chris. K Cook

            Thing is most comps have nothing to do with fairness. Most of them are just guys trying to either straight-jacket the game back to one of the awful past editions or gain an unfair advantage for their army.

            ITC is the only one that isn’t a cancerous pox on the game and even that has flaws.

            7th ed is ‘balanced’ in sense that there are so many options you can’t build a list that is strong in anything any more so everyone has an even chance of winning.

        • Chris. K Cook

          Oh noes ‘randomness’ hows will you ever Mathhammer your way to victory?

          You’d have to learn tactics and strategy. Or just be able to handle stuff on the fly. We can’t have that right?

          Hating ‘randomness’ pretty well just outs you as a WAAC Powergamer.

          • zeno666

            Because randomness has a lot to do with tactics and stradegy…

          • Chris. K Cook

            You use tactics and strategy to work around the randomness.

          • Andersp90 .

            In some cases, that is simply not an option. Take magical terrain (I can’t remember the actual name as we never use it) as an example. You can get a game where your enemies terrain grants him signifikant bonuses, while your terrain might punish you. In very close games, that early game advantage/disadvantage can be what determines the game. – and there is very little you can do to play around it.

          • Chris. K Cook

            Ok if you say so. How dare you have to think on your feet rather than buy the best toy http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c06c8bd0da8ea93b3d6c48f0d7da712ac3f31fecefe760d29326c31c21271b41.jpg s.

          • Andersp90 .

            Let me ask you a simple question:

            Lets imagine that we have to equaliy strong lists, controlled by equaliy skilled players. Now, one player gets two terrain pieces in his deployment zone that gives a “better than normal” cover safe to the occupying, ranged units. The other player just gets normal terrian pieces. Now for the question:

            Would you say, that each of the two players are quality favored to win the game?

          • Andersp90 .

            Let me ask you a simple question:

            Lets imagine that we have to equally strong lists, controlled by equally skilled players. Now, one player gets two terrain pieces in his deployment zone that gives a “better than normal” cover save to the occupying, ranged units. The other player just gets normal terrian pieces. Now for the question:

            Would you say, that each of the two players are equally favored to win the game?

          • Chris. K Cook

            I’d say that you shouldn’t put a terrain piece like that in either players deployment zone.

            Stop playing jerks who pull that stuff. Don’t blame the rules because someone abuses them.

            And there is more than one way to skin a cat.

            Also wasn’t this about you screaming about how evil randomness was?

          • Andersp90 .

            Or in other words: No, you don’t think they would be equally favored.
            And that is my point. Mysterious terrain (like a lot of things in 6th and 7th edition) favores the lucky/bold player – not the most skilled. And it dosen’t matter where you put it. The (random favoring) effect is the same, as nobody will know what it does, until someone enters it.
            At least they have largely removed it in 7th edition.

          • Andersp90 .

            So having a different opinion than you, automatically makes me a WAAC powergamer? As it is right now, my group of 6 raveners can get shoot to bits by overwatch, fail their 6 inch charge and then get finished off in the coming shooting phase. Herp derp tactics and strategy?

          • Chris. K Cook

            Then don’t charge if you don’t think you will definitely make it.

            Also you get Overwatch is a Snap shot right?

            There is your strategy and tactic nimrod.

            Rarg I has to thinks, random bad.

            Yeah you are a WAAC guy, that’s why you dislike things that bring randomness to the table because you can’t mathhammer victory before you play the game.

          • Andersp90 .

            That is the problem: You can NEVER be sure to get the charge off, unless your are only 2 inches from your target.

            Yes, overwatch are free snapshots that a unit gets to take without any thinking or strategic insight required by the owning player… That, along with the reduced cover saves and random charge ranges, killed of most assault armies – which is a real shame.

            What does ” mathhammering” your way to victory even mean? Do chess players mathhammer their way to victory?

            Also, stop being so damn rude. It’s not exactly making you look any smarter.

          • Chris. K Cook

            if you are expecting charges from 8 inches out to be successful then you are going to have a bad time.

          • Andersp90 .
          • Chris. K Cook

            You were crying that you you can’t successfully charge all the time, instead of working out how to maximise you chance of success.

            Use you brain, all the ‘I Win’ buttons have gone away.

          • Andersp90 .

            Your response – like the previous (ones) – simply makes no sense. Yes, you can maximize your chances by getting closer to the enemy models, but it is still luck that decides whether you make it or not. Saying otherwise, just proves that you don’t understand basic mathematics. You clearly like the random **** because you know that it will give you an advantage over players with more tactical prowess than yourself. – and that is just fine. Just dont lie to yourself.

            Anyway, you have a nice weekend – and rememeber to open the door before you try to leave the house..

            P.s If you like the math behind the game (and you clearly don’t) this might be a read you would enjoy: http://wolvesforthewolfgod.blogspot.dk/2012/07/getting-to-know-40k-6th-edition-assault.html

      • Richard Mitchell

        Well before you comment I would do what I did and actually play a couple games of it. I love my Warmachine and Hordes, and Dark Age but arguing that FF hasn’t made a tight rules set is well…just not true.

      • Chris. K Cook

        Don’t even get me started on what FFG did to WFRP!

    • SacTownBrian

      Like TSR or FASA were turned around? Be careful what you wish for. I have a copy of Readout 3120 and 4th ed players hand book for you…

      • Chris. K Cook

        *shudder*

        Or like white Wolf after CCP took over?

        • Richard Mitchell

          On a side note Chris, I really f)()ing miss old school White Wolf. You remember this little show. Got cancelled with Firefly fashion but I loved it BEFORE I even knew what VtM was.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kindred:_The_Embraced

          • Chris. K Cook

            It was actually kind terrible. Too much sunshine for a vampire show.

            Aaron Spelling should never be let near vampires again!

  • Cergorach

    ICv2 charts have always been flawed, this just shows how much… Many sales channels are not included and charts are made based on an underbelly feeling (interviews) instead of hard numbers.

    Asmodee (of which FFG is a part) generated only 20% more revenue than GW a year or so ago. I do not believe that only X-Wing is generating more revenue then the whole (40k) Warhammer IP (which is pretty much all GW revenue).

    • Charon

      First of all, these are US charts. GW was always strong in Europe. Second, yes not all sales channels are included. But this is the same for all companies and to set GW ahead it must have massive online sales.
      Third, GWs sales keep declinging in their reports. Forth, Star Wars just had a Blockbuster and this alone is generating sales for anything star wars related.
      So yes, it may be flawed but not as much as you would like to think.

      • Cergorach

        Even if it was just the US, it would still mean atleast twice as much revenue in a year possibly more.

        I suspect that no GW stores were interviewed and indeed no online sales. We have no numbers to compare from FFG.

        Yep, GW keeps declining, but it still needs to fall an extreme amount to get below FFG revenue.

        Yeah, a SW ‘blockbuster’… I like SW as much as the next nerd, but the movie was entertaining, but it fell quickly off many folks radar. As for X-wing, it had only a starter set and the tie fighter and the x-wing to tie into the movie. It might have generated interest in the previous releases, but I doubt the levels necessary to surpass GW sales/revenue.

        Don’t get me wrong I like FFG a LOT and X-wing/Armada as well, but what I spend on a whole bunch of ships was a drop in the bucket compared to what I spend on GW stuff. How many Tie Fighters or X-wings do you need? The same for the other ships, there’s a limited selection available vs. the 2000+ GW products… People can and do spend more on GW.

        • Gridloc

          Less people spend more. I don’t think this is saying GW isn’t selling, number 2 could be $1 under number one or it could be hundreds of thousands. Basing GW sales on the fact it cost more to play a game does not equate to it making more money.

          • Cergorach

            No it doesn’t but putting GW’s revenue and FFG’s revenue against each other from a year ago (and looking at GW’s from their last period) would mean that FFG’s revenue (and thus sales) would have been 4-5+ times as high as compared to a year ago. That wouldn’t have happened. FFG and Asmodee would have shouted that fact from the roofs!

          • Gridloc

            revenue and sales may be different. X wing may sell better but lower profit margins vs GW who own and make their product in house. So X-wing may be selling like crazy, but revenue from them is going up slightly.

          • AmasNagol

            No, revenue is money taken in, not profit.

          • Charles Covar

            Sales and revenue are the same metric.

          • Cergorach

            I think your mixing up profit and revenue. Revenue is what you get for selling products, services, etc. Nothing is distracted from this number yet, when you do, your talking about profit.

            What you might mean is that GW does a LOT of direct sales and FFG does not.

          • Matthew Pomeroy

            FFG makes more than just miniature games, I would have no trouble at all believing they make considerably more than GW, who only really make a handful of games and all of those miniature based. FFG also makes games for GW.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            remember that a lot of GWs revenue comes from licensing rather than direct miniature sales. License agreements don’t show up in these figures. It may well be FFG has caught up with GW as far as mini sales goes.

          • Dave

            In fact, that level of “required” spending may be why they are #2. It is what it is.

        • Charon

          You mix stuff up. Sales does not equal revenue.
          From anectotical evidence I can tell that a lot of people in my friendlist have picked up X-Wing (after the movie) even if they did not play any wargame before. The franchise sells and is not such a small niche like 40k. Star Wars is inescapable whiel you have to specifily look for 40k to get in.
          Again from anectotical evidence. Yes I HAVE spent much more on GW than on any other game. But the last time I did buy something was the calth box for marines to convert them with wargamer bitz to create Rubric marines.
          As long as there are no new models or new rules for me im not gonna buy anything from GW. GW can have a million products.. if they do not have the line which I like to buy, I am not gonna buy anything. Thats like “Well I really want a new graphics card… hmm… I don’t like the offer so I buy a T-Shirt, shoes and a scarf”
          Also money spent on other stuff (like 3rd party bitz or other game systems) is not going to be spent on GW stuff. Just because there are 3+ games to play customers do not magically tripple their hobby budget. Even PC gaming goes into this. A hobbyist that is also a video gamer and a cyclist has ONE budget for his hobbies. If he buys Fallout 4 thats one or 2 boxes less for GW.

          • Cergorach

            Your right, ‘sales’ is a subset of ‘revenue’ in the US. The fun part is that GW doesn’t list it’s license fees under revenue, it’s a separate entry… It’s license fees are less then 3% of the revenue GW generates.

            Maybe if US sales plummeted drastically and most of the EU FFG (X-wing) sales moved to the US…

            Maybe they are talking about sales numbers… A X-wing ship after all costs only $14.95 a box of Space Marines costs $40…

            What I do know is that ICv2 isn’t using hard sales figures… I suspect that they are asking retailers and distributors: What’s selling well, instead of asking how much $ did you sell of X and Y…

          • Severius_Tolluck

            I think what he means to say there is a difference between net operating profit and gross.

          • Charon

            Even if they just ask “what is selling well and what sits on the shelves” it does paint a picture about the state of the game. Not of the company of course but these 2 things do not go seperate. If (for any reason) my friends are going to quit 40k and my local club switches to another game mostly so I have a hard time finding games, I will switch too. The crux of social games is that you need people to play with. If a game has a small community it is in risk of dying. And GW tries hard to get rid of “communities” in favor of walk-in customers who drop a few hundred bucks and get bored by the long game and do not like the modelling and painting aspect and finally drop out of the hobby again after a few months.

        • DeadlyYellow

          Article dated their “Metrics” September through December. This would have been riding high on the prerelease holiday hype-train.

    • Kyle Sears

      This is only counting independent retailers, where FFG has all there sales and GW only has a portion of their sales.

    • Agent OfBolas

      You would be surprised how it looks in my city.

      WH40k, WHFB, A0S… are dead. No one plays it. In the same time, all those players moved to X-wing. Within one year, our club tripled number of players that are coming to our tournaments. From 5-6 people playing GW we moved to 35-40 guys playing X-wing – weekly basis.

      What’s more, all guys that were playing GW games … moved to X-wing.

      That’s why I can understand how FFG made 1st place. Not to mention that things like Warmachine are also taking away GW customers.

  • Richard Mitchell

    I really love Warmachine and Hordes, the models, the system, the lore but I am not to shocked to see X-Wing and Armada at the top. The sales performance of these games go beyond a popular IP. The prepainted models are top shelf, the rules are light and easy but tactically deep, and there is active tournament support from Fantasy Flight. FF really demonstrated what a company could do with a popular IP if it implements light, consistent, tactically deep rules with active company community engagement. I love what the game has done for the hobby because now I see more people with a sparked interest in the hobby side of miniature gaming who never miniature gamed before.

  • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

    so who was that guy I was talking to on here about 3 months ago who didn’t think X-Wing was a serious rival to 40k?…..

    • ZeeLobby

      it’s literally all i see in our local FLGS, that, some infinity, some flames of war, the occasional warmahordes, and that’s pretty much it.

      • Severius_Tolluck

        You have FoW players? That is like finding a needle in a haystack without magnets here! I cry ever so slightly at night knowing I can never get a game in.

        • Xodis

          There’s a decent sized group in San Angelo TX……only place I ever seen it played though.

        • Noridaii

          Maybe because its made in NZ, but Flames is one of the most popular game systems here.

          • Severius_Tolluck

            It’s just historical games are rare where I am in the US. Even more rare if they are fairly easy to play and are designed around points for pick up and go versus the ever classic scenarios. Which don;t get me wrong can be neat especially with fairly accurate representation, however sometimes I just like using tanks to blow up tanks that really existed and not get in an overwhelming condescending presentation lol! People really love things that are steam punk or alt history, or just straight up scifi/fantasy over it. *shrugs*

      • Richard Mitchell

        The crazy thing about X-Wing is all the NEW players who picked it up at the store and do tournaments now. Some people from my Warmachine group play too but none of the players are former 40k players. They are literally people who never wargamed, ever. I played the game a couple of times and I was impressed, it had me consumed with doing the same brain burning tactical thinking Warmachine does. I have been busy growing the hobby over the last three months but next month I am going to buy a set so I can participate.

    • Cergorach

      Do you really think that X-wing is generating $200+ million for FFG? That’s 4-5 times the entire revenue they had last year… Just for X-wing? That’s not even counting Armada as a separate entry and all the other board/LCG games they make…

      No, just no. Not even in the US…

      I can believe that the FFG SW games are doing better then WarmaHordes, but that’s because we don’t have any dependable revenue numbers for PP. But I suspect that PP is generating less revenue then FFG…

      • Gridloc

        Sorry, the fall from top may be painful. Play X wing, its tons of fun.

        But on that, Azmodee was at 200M sales last year, and that was before movie dropped which could only spark interest and sales. So them out doing GW is not only possible but hard not to believe.

        We don’t know if warhammer is just 40k or combo, but if just 40k, GW did put alot of effort into AoS sales which could be why that number is lower. But then if its both, it would also reflect the declining profits we saw in the last few financial reports.

        Personally its good for GW, they had their head in the clouds with the ‘we are the best’ even their fans echo’d it. Now with new top dog, GW will have to step it up…

        • Xodis

          This is just the fall sales anyways. Which only includes 1 month of “after the new movie” sales. Winter sales data will be nice and show us how big the movie impact was.

        • Dave

          Competition is always good. There’s a reason why GW is aiming for toy stores at a realistic price this summer (I’m buying some). Plus, X-Wing was going strong before the movies and only two ships have been released based on it. The last (and next) waves have been based largely on old EU and Rebels ships. The movie just added fuel, the fire was already pretty big.

          • Gridloc

            I hope GW releases an AoS style sub-rule set for that new line. Nothing will scare kids off more than explaining they have to read books to play with their new toys lol

          • Dave

            I thought I saw a rules set leaked. It looked very AOS like. Hoping they learned a few lessons. But in reality, my kids will like it and I have an excuse to paint up some Orks. A few friends that balked at getting back into 40k (mostly due to the cost of rules) also seem interested.

          • euansmith

            A game that allows a limit (two) factions could be a lot of fun. I’ve got my fingers crossed.

    • It’s not that it isn’t a serious property, it’s that it isn’t remotely comparable to real mini games. It’s heroclix in space. It sells well but it offers nothing to a substantial portion of the mini Wargaming audience, it’s basically attracting new people and people for whom the hobby aspects were never important (people who don’t like painting and assembling) along with a very tiny number of people who like repainting tiny Star Wars ships even though you can buy far more detailed and interesting models from real mini manufacturers

      • Dave

        Sure, keep telling yourself that. Having played a lot of both games I can say they’re not much alike. It’s played everywhere 40k is and in my experience, it’s being played more. X-Wings rules are very tight and have enormous depth. You should try it, it’s fun. I also find that a majority of players are current or former 40k players (at least on SW night).

        Like it or not, it is a “real” miniature game. Because it’s not you’re favorite doesn’t change that.

        • Oh, no to be clear I’m not criticizing the game for what it is, I just don’t care about gameplay. I buy models to build and paint and on that score Xwing offers me nothing. It doesn’t help that I primarily like the role playing aspects of 40k (and narrative campaign gaming) which I find very little to scratch that itch in a game about faceless space ships and strategic use of pilot cards of largely existing characters.
          Note: I’m not saying that it’s impossible to build an Xwing campaign system that advances characters and bans named characters, just that even that sounds pretty limited and boring, unhelped by the rather commercial and bland Star Wars universe at large (excluding the excellent and now abandoned Old Republic setting)

          • Richard Mitchell

            It offers you a really fun, balanced game to play while you paint your GW models.

          • Kyle Sears

            This is so spot on

          • That is certainly some portion of their market

      • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

        I’m not sure thats true, or at least its not in my experience. New people, yes, people who aren’t that into the hobby side (thats a lot of people, who previously just played with unpainted GW figures), but I also see a lot of people who were normal gamers, into playing and hobby, and into GW games, who have now moved into PP games and X-Wing.

        • Oh totally, I know a lot of people like that, they mostly have other people paint their minis etc, I just don’t consider them to be hobbyists, which isn’t a mark against them just a market segment differentiator

      • Richard Mitchell

        I would say X-Wing sells well because it is selling mostly to people who are not playing hobbyist games. They are not stealing 40k’s revenue (Warmachine, Wyrd, CMoN are doing that), they are actually targeting an entirely different audience and selling more because of it. To say its heroclix in space, well I dare you to give it a try. I am a hobbyist gamer and I am man enough to admit, its actually a really fun game. though not a hobbyist game.

        • I’ve never played heroclix and hear it’s quite fun so I certainly wasn’t using it as a negative descriptor, just that it’s a different market segment. That said I’m honestly not interested, but I really only do narrative 40K and nothing about Xwing scratches that itch. I also find the models to be seriously overpriced for what you get.

        • Red_Five_Standing_By

          It IS targeting Heroclix’s wheelhouse. They are simple to play, fun games who derive a large portion of their income and popularity to the fact that they license very popular properties.

          X-Wing is a good game but it would not be nearly as successful (if at all) if it were not using the Star Wars IP.

    • Richard Mitchell

      Awww crap ….was that me? Damn, sorry for being a fool KoIR.

      • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

        apology accepted

  • denzark

    To look at this in any way scientifically – or at least rationally/logically – one needs to confirm if ‘Warhammer’ is 40K and fantasy / AoS because in last year it was a separate result. Similarly, last year Hordes was separate from Warmachine. Then, if Hordes is indeed separate and has dropped out of the top 5, we need to invite the PP cult members to concentrate on this rather than ‘OMG because they dropped the number 1 slot, GW is about to be bought by Hasbro and they will refund my stolen tears as tournament prize support’.

    • zeno666

      Well the Age of Sigmar-player sure is quiet at the moment 😉

  • Xodis

    Anything Star Wars is just kicking tail honestly.

    Imperial Assault was ranked 7
    FFG’s Star Wars RPG was ranked 3
    Hell Im sure if Dodge sold their Star Wars cars they would be flying off the racks as well.

    • Captain Raptor

      It will be interesting to see if that trend continues, obviously the new movie is really fueling interest but in a couple years the shine may have worn off. Of course X-wing has been going strong for a few years now so maybe this is the new reality.

      • Dave

        Yeah, X-Wing was doing great long before the movie. Also, we have to factor in a new movie each year for a while. They’ll expand all the FFG SW products.

      • Xodis

        I have a feeling that the next couple movies will end up doing more for Xwing than Episode 7 did. Especially as Disney starts expanding and adding more new “toys” to space battles.

        • Red_Five_Standing_By

          Seriously, they gave FFG one new Star Destroyer (which could be too large for Aramada) and, what essentially amounts to, two repaints of classic fighters.

          Disney totally dropped the ball when it came to introducing new and awesome ships. That is why Star Wars Rebels is pulling so much weight in X-Wing all of a sudden. They actually include new and different ships.

          • Xodis

            We are getting 1 movie a year, so hopefully this changes pretty soon lol

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            Dude, we get 2 or 3 Marvel movies a year. We are getting a Star Wars movie every year now.

          • Xodis

            Thats what I said lol

  • durendin

    I think we can say with confidence that “Warhammer” means 40K, not age of Sigmar.

    • georgelabour

      Napoleon also said ‘Russia will be mine’ with a great deal of confidence.

    • Ben_S

      I don’t think anyone’s under the impression that it’s AoS alone, but it’s unclear whether it’s 40k only or 40k and AoS combined.

  • Krizzab

    wow star wars armada… this one feels really bad .

  • rtheom

    What’s especially interesting about this is the fact that the average X-wing player has a significantly smaller collection, and thus significantly smaller number of purchases, than the average Warhammer player, ultimately meaning that there are A LOT more players in general.

    Not surprising, just interesting to think about.

    • Xodis

      X-wing is a game that removes all the normal inhibitions that most gamers have about getting into a wargame the size of 40K and Warmahordes.

      -Need to be able to paint to have nice models? NOPE
      -Need to get skilled with glue and/or pinning to have cool models? NOPE
      -Need to purchase a giant book of rules/fluff to play the game? NOPE
      -Is it based in a fantastic world with tons of lore you probably never heard of and need to play catch up to understand the goings on? NOPE
      -Are the models EXPENSIVE? NOPE

      • Captain Raptor

        They really did hit on something special with X-Wing. I still paint my ships but old habits die hard 😛

        • Xodis

          I’ve seen a lot of good painters do touch ups or customized jobs on ships making them pop even better. I know I have a few planned myself lol

          • Dave

            Everyone has to paint up a Poe. It’s neat seeing people that would never have touched a miniature game buying paint and hobby supplies. It’s good for everyone.

        • zeno666

          One thing might be that its a fast game. So if you can see that this whole thing is going down the drain. You just don’t have to sit there for hours and watch you opponent crush you with the lastest monster release for his army.

      • Expensive is relative, they are cheap compared to say playing Magic competitively, but I wouldn’t pay 1/3 of what FFG sells those minis for (though the discount retailer prices are slightly more reasonable I find the models to be rather lackluster)

        • Xodis

          Expense is relative, correct, and it’s by that standard the models are considered cheap for what you get. Comparing to the competitive Magic, 40K, 30K, Warmahordes, even most boardgames and RPGs X-Wing is still cheaper for entry and competitive competition.
          Your bias opinion of the quality however does not change that.

          • Depends on what you’re buying. As a game set you can get into Xwing cheaper (other than maybe an all dark vengeance ravenwing or deathwing army or something like that which is a total outlier in addition to being super limited in options), but on a per model basis The vast majority of GW figs are a lot cheaper than Xwing models (although GW has aggressively pushed up single clam pack prices to the point where those kits are a really bad value). It depends on what you are doing with the minis.

        • Dave

          Well, you can put together a squad fairly cheap. Even two large ships are going to come in way under $100. They paint up pretty well too. Check out some of the crazy LED’d Falcons. There’s also a few folks selling small ships that have been tricked out with lights, pilots, working canopies…just crazy stuff at that scale.

          • Right, I’m talking as a statue, gameplay excluded, the per model cost of the Xwing minis is very high, and I don’t think they’re a good value. For a bit more you can get multipart model kits in a bigger scale that offer a hobbyist a lot more value.

          • Dave

            I’ll agree to disagree on the value. I’ve been collecting ships for a while, have a pretty good collection of all three factions (at least the small ships) and have spent under what I would on any playable 40k army.

            At the same time, I’d love to see a competitor in X-Wings niche with more emphasis on modeling. There’s a pretty big modding community in X-Wing producing all manor of “uglies”. Seems like a no brainer to capitalize on that base. Even if they are just for use as X-Wing proxies. I’d gladly throw money at chasis kits in that scale to tweak my ships more easily. I may make some molds….

          • See now that would interest me, although I’m still not a fan of the scale, I would definitely buy multipart Xwing kits

          • Xodis

            You can’t really determine the price per model and say “gameplay excluded”. Even the purchase of a single Tie Fighter gives you bonus upgrades that can be used with other ships. So the initial price tag we all purchase with includes not only a model but a possible significant upgrade to an entire force.

          • Right, except that I don’t buy models as game pieces, I occasionally game but it’s a tiny portion of my hobby time and not an important part of the value of models to me. The cards and such are just junk that will take up drawer space

          • Xodis

            Sure, and that works for YOUR assessment, but again thats not a fair assessment of the actual product, but one with your own personal bias attached to it.
            It’s like the AoS campaign books, they are not worth the price at ALL if you only want the 3-5 battalion rules, but if you want all the different campaign scenarios, fluff, art, etc… Its a decently priced book.

          • That’s my point. I’m GW’s key demo because I primarily build and collect. They could publish a 4 page ruleset and make all the special characters have you do goofy stuff to activate your abilities and it wouldn’t stop me buying their game because I don’t really care about gameplay. That’s the reason despite inept management of their game systems GW still sells massive quantities of miniatures, because they are primarily attracting people for whom the models and universe are the selling point, not the game

          • Xodis

            I get that, but my point is your review of the product comes from a complete bias perspective (which is perfectly fine and I’m not trying to say otherwise) from someone who doesn’t use the product completely and isn’t judging it as a whole but from personal worth.
            There are ways of purchasing ships without a magic pack worth of cards included for an even bigger discount than discount online retailers, once again bringing the model price easily lower than GW ever sells PPM.

          • You can get Xwing minis for under $4 a model? Because that is what most GW minis run after discounts, less for starter set minis, more for bigger minis, etc. I would consider buying Xwing minis at that price point.

          • Xodis

            Yeah, without all the add-ons, you can find them. After all, at that point youre only paying for a very small portion of the original product.

          • Xodis

            Also, I wouldn’t say “most”. Really only the Starter set minis ever run that cheap and are of a lesser quality than the regular models GW puts out. Most single character models are sold at 10-30 depending on the army and age of the sculpt.

          • GW single character models are stupidly expensive, but I have purchased perhaps 3 in my entire time playing, they can all easily be made from normal kits. Most GW kits are 40-50 for a 10 man kit before discount, so 3-4 per model is actually quite normal for non starter set minis

          • Xodis

            I feel like that assessment only works for Troop kits, anything outside of that is substantially more expensive and limits your available “cheap” options as a collector.

          • We’ll certainly substantially larger kits ( cavalry, vehicles, monsters) are more expensive (and some specialist like scions with a massive amount of bits are 5 man kits instead of 10) but most of your army is gonna be infantry unless you’re playing tyranids (sad irony that) or flying daemon Prince spam. But the comparison really starts to break down there since there’s much less of a variety of sizes of Xwing minis

          • Xodis

            Even ignoring all the larger kits because they should cost more anyways, but just looking at Space Marine Heavy support shows a large disparity as a 5 man Devastator squad is outlandish in its cost. Sure it comes with a couple more bits, but not NEARLY enough to make up for it in price. Same could be said about most non troop small infantry models. Honestly Troop kits are the best and only deal outside of Start Collecting and Starter Kits.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            Devastators are expensive because their guns are artificially kept scarce to encourage repurchases.

          • Xodis

            Agreed, and it doesn’t work out well for a collector in this situation.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            Two boxes gets you enough minis to make 2 complete Devastator squads…

            Well…

            2 Devastator boxes and a Tactical Squad…

      • Kyle Sears

        Are the models expensive? Yes ridiculously so. $15 dollars for a tiny ship is really expensive. Since you don’t need that much to play though it can be cheap compared to say 40k to make your army. However that gets boring really quickly so you end up spending 40k level money in the end as you buy more models.

        • Dave

          Expensive sure, 40k level money, not even close. You can buy the core and several expansions for what you’d pay for any of the start collecting bundles. That’s playing squads in tournaments and pick up games- 100 points. Things get pricey if you want to play epic. Even epic is chump change comparatively. I can go to MM right now and buy BOTH of the Empire’s Epic ships for a little over $100 (and that’s including 2 extra Ties and an Advanced) while a single Knight or Super Heavy is around $150. And you can’t ignore the scale of the game. Ships in X-Wing are essentially characters, a single character clam pack in 40k is around $30 bucks now…and that’s without the rules to use it.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            If you are playing competitively, there is no way you are not buying a majority of what FFG is offering, since your lists will live and die on upgrade cards.

          • Dave

            I play mostly casual, but do play in the store on occasion and will be doing a tournament next week. I’ve spent lots of money on X-Wing, but not because it was necessary to play “competitively”. I took a minute and added up the sets I had to buy to make my store championship squad (everything from MM):

            -FA Core box (everything needed to play, plus a T70 I’m using) $26
            -T70 expansion $10
            -Y-Wing Expansion $10
            -Star Viper Expansion $12
            -K-Wing Expansion $13
            -A Wing Expansion $10

            That’s $81, cheaper than even the new get started boxes, let alone 1500 -1850 points in whatever 40k army.

            Now, the only card I don’t have, but would like to use comes with an Epic ship, which is $40. I could buy the card for $10 or so by itself, but I’m pretty good without it. If I wanted to go all in, I could buy that ship and still come in (with wiggle room) well under $150.

            GW doesn’t even come close to that.

        • Xodis

          Ill agree to disagree.

          First a “model” isn’t $15, that price gives you not only a model but upgrade cards that can be used with other models as well, same can be said for the 30-80 ships.

      • zeno666

        FFG has included the expanded universe (known as Legends these days), so there is a lot of lore to dig through.

        • Xodis

          Not really. Xwing is a very non story based game. Its also rather easy to ignore the Legend material and just use canon only material. Chances are if youre playing Xwing youve already seen at least 3 of the movies in the franchise, leaving you with little to figure out.
          We have the Impire (Bad guys, “the man”, etc..), we have the Rebels (Good Guys, Terrorists, etc..) and we have the Mercs (Hired Help, Neutral Guys, etc…). There isn’t really much room for different interpretations, and even if a complex narrative is added, it doesn’t really change the game.

          • zeno666

            And how does it change other games?

          • Xodis

            Are you asking how the inclusion of a narrative changes the game in other games? That should be pretty obvious IMO.

          • zeno666

            So whats stopping you from having that in X-Wing?

          • Xodis

            I’m not saying you can’t, I’m just saying its not a part of the normal game.

          • zeno666

            Is it in 40k, Warmachine or Flames of War?

          • Xodis

            Yes, with campaign books, scenarios, and other narrative driven battles.

  • AmasNagol

    I’m going to assume that these figures aren;t including GW PLC revenue and only independent stockists.

    Because there is no way on planet earth that FFG sell more of anything than GW, quality of game withstanding.

    • Captain Raptor

      GW’s data is not included in any way. What this ranking shows is that independent game stores in the US are selling more X-wing than Warhammer. It’s only a survey of one country but considering how long Warhammer has occupied the top spot it is cause for concern if you care about the health of the company.

      • Severius_Tolluck

        Doesn’t hurt that its a toy and sold in toy stores, target, barnes and noble, etc etc. That is how its going. And will continue to trend up. GW is finally following suit but they may muck it up. Parents may also not like the prices lol.

        • Captain Raptor

          Absolutely, X-wing has a reach that GW can’t compete with currently. The Vedros products coming later this year might help though.

          • It’s also not really a market GW wants to compete with. They’ve pretty well demonstrated their sales strategy: sell large, complex hobby games with huge factions, and put compatible minis in board games that are standalone playable. GW doesn’t want to make pre-assembled pre-painted minis and they shouldn’t as it isn’t where their skills are

          • Dave

            Well, they are trying to compete this summer. Not pre-painted, but basic snap fit nonetheless. They wouldn’t be doing that if everything was going great.
            I’m excited about it and hope they can resist the urge to shoot themselves in the foot.

          • Those are being sold in hobby stores that don’t have the desire/space for a full GW display, they’re competing with the classic car and model airplane market more than anything to do with Xwing, just look at the marketing and packaging:

          • Dave

            We’ll have to see where and how they are sold. From the info on the display, it looks like they are planning on selling the kits in stand alone marketing displays. They aren’t going up on the shelf next to cars. They’ll most likely be in the specialty game isles next to X-Wing and expensive board games. At least I hope so, they need to compete in that market, not pretend to be something else. Otherwise why include rules and advertise the kits as a game.

          • True, we’ll see

  • bobrunnicles

    Regardless of whether ‘Warhammer’ is just 40K or not, regardless of whether these figures include the sales from GW stores/online sales, I’m very impressed by the strong showing for both Armada and Attack Wing 🙂

    • Captain Raptor

      Attack wing came as a surprise to me. I had no idea it had such a healthy following. I wish the ships were on par with x-wing’s. If they were I’d be all over it.

      • Severius_Tolluck

        I have similar feelings. I think the ships are poop. However wiz kids added a few features that people like like going reverse with fed ships and it has so many factions already and they run tourneys better than ffg even. I just feel it’s not the kind of system I would expect for capital ships fighting mostly? Although in the TV show they do seem to be fairly maneuverable but I still see them kinda slow and cumbersome and need to rotate to face shields and such. Hey if it works it works I guess. Just see like armada or like the old hex starfleet game in my mind.

      • bobrunnicles

        Couldn’t agree more, though get some Fed ships on the table against the giant Borg cube ‘mini’ and it somehow doesn’t seem to matter any more lol. They are also covering a wide range of eras which I like too.

        • Captain Raptor

          If anything could get me to buy in it would be the Borg and I guess I could just repaint anything I didn’t like. I need to stop now before I talk myself into buying in :p

  • Captain Raptor

    It was bound to happen, nothing can compete with the Star Wars IP at the moment. In a better world this would be a wake up call to GW but the truth is that they’ve lost so much ground in North America that barring a miracle product, they’re not likely to see a recovery.

    If anything can turn GW’s fortunes around it’ll be the Vedros sets but it might be too little to late.

    My big question is did x-wing get a big bump from the new movie or has GW’s decade long decline finally shown up in the ICv2 data?

    • Gridloc

      Possibly a combo of both. I know even my brother asked about X-wing. he doesn’t touch table top games and has numerous times used my hobby as the punch line of a joke. But after seeing movie, he wanted a few ‘star wars toys’ which when he asked i mentioned how there is an extensive line of models prepainted. Even if he didn’t like the game.

      • Captain Raptor

        That seems likely, it would make the most sense. To add to your point, I think a lot of people underestimate the reach that X-wing has. The marketing for it has been far superior to Warhammer since it launched. Considering how many places carry X-wing, the power of the brand, and the ease of entry, I’m almost surprised it didn’t take the number one spot sooner.

        • Severius_Tolluck

          hence why GW said enough, and decided to move away from word of mouth or cold call visits to the stores and move into mainstream retail. Why they never decided to market beyond internal magazines is beyond me.

          • Captain Raptor

            Yeah, the lack of marketing drives me up the wall. How in the world do they expect to recruit new players without advertising outside of their own little sphere of influence? Word of mouth is great but only if it’s positive. GW has been mired for years by negative word of mouth by both players and ex-players. If anyone needs a slick advertising campaign it’s this company.

            White dwarf is a pale shadow of what it used to be. It should never have been primarily an advertising tool. The biggest brand in wargamming deserves more than a weekly pamphlet aimed at those who already play.

          • Dave

            It’s hard to mass market a product that is priced like GW, especially in the last decade where prices shot up and wages shot down. The new stuff is priced at a point where retailers would actually sell it. Not many stores are gonna touch a model tank for $75. I really hope Vedros does well, I like to see GW think out of their box (not “the” box but it’s a start).

          • Ben_S

            They used to, at least in the UK back in the 1990s. You could get Warhammer from places like Argos – probably on the back of Heroquest and Space Crusade. I don’t know why they stopped doing this in the first place.

        • Gridloc

          Well X-wing shows up in retail stores, that helps drive sales a ton, add that into the movie craze and kids wanting that tie fighter (even if not for the game).

          GW is looking to get into retail stores, when it does, these numbers may swing back in their favor. Will be interesting to see.

          • Captain Raptor

            Yeah, those Vedros sets look to be pretty good. I’m hoping that they catch on and we see GW move towards mainstream retail channels for more products.

    • Dave

      Both

  • Old zogwort

    Face it X-wing is just a better game, and on top of that is socially more acceptable.

    • Dave

      Amen. FFG is just nicer to me than GW.

    • Xodis

      Now lets cross our fingers for a Starwars Skirmish/Wargame some day!!!!!! The Imperial Assault models are pretty nice, so they could just build off of that, plus releasing rules for both IA/wargame figures would help push the new products.

      • Azrell

        There was one. Andy Chambers was the designer. Ill let that sink in.

        • Dave

          I played that for a while. It wasn’t terrible. Not fantastic either. I thought IA came with skirmish rules, or at least had them on the site? I heard it did but the game didn’t suit that style well. I don’t play though so I can’t be sure.

          edit:
          Nope – I don’t see rules for that anywhere

        • Xodis

          What game was that? Star Wars Miniatures battles doesn’t credit him and he doesn’t claim it from what I can find, so I’m guessing there is one thats harder to find.

  • Alexandre Comtois

    A couple things. First, X-wing, Armada, and Attack Wing -are- CMGs.

    Second, sales are a lame metric for popularity in many ways. You really don’t get an idea how popular games like Flames of War and SAGA are because there are quite a few companies making 15mm WWII guys/28mm Dark Ages guys. Games like Infinity where you need only a handful of models to play are left in the dust, too.

    • Oh, hello there!

      I thought CMG implies booster packs?

    • Dave

      Well, it’s pretty obvious when I walk into a game store. They are playing X-Wing in most cases. A few still have 40k nights, but most of the week is devoted to Star Wars and CCG (which FFG seems to dominate other than MTG).

  • zeek203

    How is the Star Trek game above so many others? I’ve never seen anyone play it. Nor do I hear about it online.

    • Matthew Pomeroy

      We have a solid group who play it fairly religiously, but most of them are trekkies and would buy the ships anyway.

  • mikemc2

    I think a key point to keep in mind is that FFG is attracting a group that GW can’t: the Star Wars Collector. FFG probably sells a ton of minis just to the collector crowd who will never remove them from the box much less play the game.

    • euansmith

      GW Collectables could be a real money earner, particular for a company that claims most of its customers are “collectors”. Action figures and those cool little gashapon things the Japanese pump out by the crate load could be a lot of fun.

  • MrSpacemonkeymojo

    So #3 is Warhammer. Do they mean 40k? Or WHF or AoS?

  • Chumbalaya

    I’m just waiting for Tweetle’s attempt at damage control.

  • If FFG ever gets the notion to make a true tabletop skirmish game based of the Star Wars license … especially if it had X-Wing/Armada grade pre-painted minis ….

    My friends and I have kitbashed Imperial Assault to work on a tabletop and it worked pretty well, all considered.

  • Juan

    Made by interviews…. aha… (O_o)

  • ctFallen

    This is for September thru December, there was what only a couple weeks of 40k Tau releases, Betrayal at Calth(Board game??), with rest being hobby and AoS. They already said they had a bad holiday season and its Star Wars, the movie broke records no kidding its sales were up. IMO this really doesn’t mean much.

  • Lord Trebor

    I agree with many of u on the fluff an HH book series but as for rules to many conflicts to say the least … an as an avid blood angels player im very disapointed space wolfs an many othe sm factions an alot of other races far outway my forces abilities as one of the greatest chapters to win many games i have to blitzrig my apponents if i want to win anything BA rules are kind of hollow an my force isnt even in the top 10 wats worse my asm are basically useless so have to go with DC or sanguinary gaurd which costs alot of points an as SG are elites an personal body gaurd of the chapter master their pretty weak with no invul… wats worse i have to use apoth just to give them fnp at a greater cost an i get nothing like the armies in the new astartes codex… nightmare !!!!

  • SacTownBrian

    Explains why GW is moving models into retail stores, I can already buy xwing at my local target.

  • Andrew Maletz

    They just confirmed in the Facebook post that is 40k, not AoS or combined.

  • Red_Five_Standing_By

    FFG moving into big box retail stores is huge. That is market penetration and reach that GW cannot compete with right now. Plus, Target was selling the new core set for 30 bucks. That’s a bigger discount than most online retailers go for (20%).

  • Agent OfBolas

    X-Wing is simple more accessible for new players, models are painted, you don’t need to have 7 the same units to have fun, games are fast and skill dependent.

    Not to mention the brilliant FFG support for the game, clear releases and good ruleset.

    Nothing strange that X-wing jumped into 1st place.
    Congratulations.

  • The Reverse Flash

    It’s a big jump, no denying that.

    It is worth noting though, that ICV2 doesn’t include sales in GW-stores or the GW-website, only independents who report to ICV2

  • Chris. K Cook

    Star Trek Attack wing is the big surprise there.

    • Benderisgreat

      I’ve never seen anyone playing that, ever.

      • Chris. K Cook

        I mean somebody must. Or is it just Trekies buying the ships to run about making wooshing sounds?

        • Benderisgreat

          That.

  • Badgerboy1977

    It’s Star Wars did anyone really expect anything different, particularly with the success of the recent film?

    Personally I don’t really see it as a direct competitor to GW anyway as there isn’t really the hobby aspect in terms of building, converting and painting the models, creating new schemes and forces etc.
    It’s the reason I haven’t bought into it myself, the game could be amazing but as much as I love Star Wars, just buying pre painted minis with a pre prescribed look does nothing for me personally.

  • NagaBaboon

    I’m a little suprised to see armada up there but I’m very glad it is