Overcoming Chaos Space Marine Blues

black-legion-CSM

Black Blow Fly discovers the surprising REAL problem with Chaos Space Marines.

Hi everyone it’s your ever friendly Black Blow Fly swinging through your neighborhood again to spread yet moar mischief and the rot. Today I want to discuss the present state of Chaos Space Marines (CSM) and their rank in in the current meta compared to some of the other top tiered codices… so hop onboard this Chaos train… it’s going to be an interesting journey.

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The Problem

First let’s define the problem… entitlement. You see there is a bitter group of veterans that still long for an out-of-print codex that’s over 10 years ago. I remember going to large tournaments back during the heydays of CSM – quite often over 70 percent of the armies you’d see were CSM which is very similar to what we see now with certain armies like Eldar.

 

Now don’t take what I say the wrong way… it was in my opinion one of the best written codices ever released by GW. You had an incredible amount of customization with very specific detailed rules for all the legions including both the cults and undivided plus their was an amazing amount of wargear and separate sets of really good psychic powers for each Chaos God excluding Khorne (of course). For example Emperor’s Children could take sonic weapons for their terminators and dreadnaughts. On top of all this Chaos daemons were included in the CSM codex as well. So you had the ability to create very powerful armies that reflected their background well using only one codex. The good news is it can still be had albeit a different route.

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It’s not coming back.

The veterans I mentioned above still have an expectation that GW will or should release something very similar again for them. They belly ache every time anyone has anything good to say about CSM which is very unfortunate because really there are some great things you can do. We can look longingly to the past or we can move forward. I think the vets are going to be waiting a long long time for what they want which is one codex that’s very powerful and has everything in it much like Eldar… They will continue to be disillusioned and cast a shadow on anything good CSM has to offer.

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Start here – and keep going.  The combos are there.

The Solution

If you are open to change and willing to embrace the modern concept of using multiple sources then you can build powerful armies that are fun to play and have a strong theme… this is really where it’s at now. I’m talking mixing together codices such as Black Legion, Chaos Daemons, Crimson Slaughter and Khorne Daemonkin (KDK). I have witnessed games and even played some myself where Chaos via combination has taken down super powered armies such as Eldar, Super Friends and even Tau.

I’m a big fan of KDK seeing Khorne is and has always been one of my go to Chaos forces. There are other really great things now right at your fingertips such as the new psychic Cabal and they have access to pretty much the same new set of the psychic powers for their Imperial counterpart – Space Marines. My advice to new players is don’t stick your head in the sand and don’t waste your time trying to appease those that are still disgruntled. Nothing good ever comes from being unhappy. I know players that are happy enough and winning some games… these are mostly those who are unfamiliar with the ancient CSM codex and that’s a good thing for them too.

let-it-go

Conclusion – Let it Go…

The old vets need to get over it or give other armies a go… it won’t kill you to try something new and really everything eventually changes. To be honest it wouldn’t surprise me if their comes a day when the likes of Eldar and Tau finally take a seat back from the top tier… it will happen for whatever reason too.

I haven’t discussed what Forge World has to offer but that’s yet another great source for Chaos in general and there’s even a fairly new book dedicated to the forces of disorder. Renegades for example are a thing now for sure.

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Lots of CSM goodies to be had over here…

~All the tools you need are out there… use them and prosper. BBF over and out !

 

Read more of Black Blow Fly at Terminus Est

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  • Dennis J. Pechavar

    I did let it go. I repainted my Death Guard for 30K and sold the rest of my Chaos marines. With the money I got from those sale I was able to build an entire Alpha Legion army for 30K. Of course there are always more models I’d like to add to both of those armies but for now they are happy.

    • Karru

      I also let go, I switched to SM and started writing my own CSM book to use with my friends.

  • Diagoras

    Entitlement, huh? Indeed, surely all of my problems as a Chaos player can be boiled down to simple entitlement.

    Surely, it has nothing to do with the fact that my favorite Chaos God is Tzeentch, and my least favorite is Khorne, and yet Khorne is the one with his own codex and decent greater daemons.

    Surely it has nothing to do with the fact that my favorite Legion is the Thousand Sons, and so I have one garbage, overpriced unit that can in no way form an army by itself.

    Surely it has nothing to do with the fact that, instead of giving us an actual 7th Edition codex and updating woefully outdated rules and point costs, they jusy slapped together a few hastily written supplements that failed to fix the actual problems.

    It must be entitlement. That’s what “wanting your favorite faction, which you’ve stuck with for years despite being swept aside and neglected, to be held to the same standards as its peers” is, yes? Entitlement? That’s the word for that.

    F*** off.

    • The Rout

      So you want a codex when nobody will be getting an update until 8th but CSM should because?

      You want a supplement for your God despite CSM having amongst the most supplements in the game?

      You want TS to get their own rules again in the form of new content? Would be nice but I’d hardly say CSM are neglected

      You want to be as powerful as the top tier even though you are aware the top tier is overpowered?

      Sounds an awful lot like entitlement to me. The google definition being “the belief that one is inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment” sounds eerily familiar…

      • MarcoT

        I’d say Space Marines have the most supplements, if we count all those chapters. How are Thousand Sons more of a niche than Blood Angels?

        Besides, supplements are hardly a boon. It’s a cumbersome system that limits how much can be changed in the parent codex.

        • The Rout

          Blood angels have been separate since forever. If they get lumped in with vanilla for the purposes of calculating supplements then so does CSM. And it is a cumbersome I agree but it’s the system for everyone unfortunately.

          I’m not saying I don’t want a TS supplement btw, look at my username. What I am saying is there is a difference in attitude between “I want X” and “I am entitled to X”

          • Nameless

            And yet no one has ever provided me with sufficient evidence why blood/dark angels should be separate codex’s rather than supplements. Sure they would have to share their toys around, everyone could have jump pack honour guard, assault cannons and flamestorm cannons on predators. their supplement can swap out chapter tactics for Red thirst and whatever other army rules they have.

            I don’t think Chaos needs any special treatment either, give them a space marine supplement rather than a separate book, swapping chapter tactics for a chaos mark. it would if nothing else reduce both whining and the gap in power.

          • The Rout

            I don’t think either of the Angels should get their own dex tbf. They do share the same toys and are both codex chapters. I do think wolves and CSM are unique enough to warrant their own dex but your solution really would work to balance things. Never thought of that but now it’s been mentioned I can’t unsee it….

          • Nameless

            whilst I think that chaos is a different army and they would likely need several supplements rather than one I can see it working so long as they put the work into the supplements (detailed lore, a list of minor changes and a new relics) I don’t see why it couldn’t work. a page to explain that Chaos librarians are called sorcerers, chapter masters/capt become chaos lords, dreadnaughts become hellbrutes and gain “crazed” special rule, ect. a page to list what isn’t available to chaos factions and a couple of pages for new profiles to cover relevant cult troops, dino bots or whatever.

          • Andrew Thomas

            I’m knuckling down and doing that in my homebrew.

          • Christopher Conway

            Yes we can try this in one of our next games mate what a good idea 😊

          • Andrew Thomas

            No, it wouldn’t, because that is essentially what we got from 5th ed on. Now if you gave us units on par with those in the core SM codex, and a consolidated Legions supplement, a la Angels of Death, we might be a little less salty about the the state of the meta from our side of the table.

          • Diagoras

            It would be nice to be able to recreate the Battle of the Fang.

            And I agree, I do have a sense of entitlement. I think that it’s unfair that the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves (no offense. I love/hate my Vlka Fenryka nemesis) are considered different enough from regular Space Marines, while Legions like Thousand Sons, Death Guard, and Emperor’s Children are reresented by one unit apiece.

            I don’t really think “They’ve always had their own codex” is a good reason why we shouldn’t get the same treatment.

            We could go to another game at any time, and a lot of us do. Look at all the “F*** this, I’m going to 30k” comments. But I haven’t, because I love this s***. I just think they’ve really f****d up, as far as my faction is concerned. And for the present, yeah. I’m kinda bitter.

          • Skathrex

            I think the whole idea with the Daemonkin books was a good one, but happend at a bad time.
            There is no reason why SM have Vanialla + 3 Dexes and Chaos doesn’t.
            Chaos could easily go Vanialla CSM +4 Daemonkin (+ maybe Daemons).
            I think GWs argumentation for not giving Chaos that is the “shattered Legions” thing.
            But then Chaos would need something diffrent.

        • Strategery.

          > How are Thousand Sons more of a niche than Blood Angels?

          lol is that a serious question?

          • Djbz

            Why wouldn’t it be?
            Thousand Sons are an entire legion who have 1 unit and 1 (unique) character to represent them.
            Blood Angels are 1 chapter that are a fraction of the size and they get a full codex and supplement.

          • Zingbaby

            Convenient twisting of the fluff – the Blood Angels WERE a Legion as well… the current quantity of bodies doesn’t change their distinct character.

            Should TS also have a codex? …sure why not.

      • Diagoras

        No, I’m not saying I want a codex now before 8th. What I’m saying is that they had plenty of time to make a 7th edition codex instead of forcing us run off a codex that hasn’t been updated in four years.

        Yes, I would definitely have preferred one supplement for each of the Chaos Gods instead of two Khorne supplements and two Undivided supplements. Why would you have an Undivided supplement in the first place? Unless some individuality is given to each legion, which there is not, the base codex should cover all of your Undivided needs.

        I would absolutely love some rules to set my legion apart from every run of the kill group of mindless Chaos Marines out there, yes.

        No, I do not want them to be top tier. I want to be able to run a non-Khorne army in middle tier against like Necrons or their Khorne equivalent.

        • Diagoras

          I meant to say “run of the mill”, but “run of the kill” is weirdly appropriate.

        • The Rout

          I agree with the khorne saturation. I personally find him to be the most dull of the gods. And I believe you will get both updated rubrics and a TS detachment when warzone fenris part 2 arrives.

        • The Rout

          I agree with you about the khorne saturation. I personally find him to be the most dull of the gods. And I believe you will get both updated rubrics and a TS detachment when warzone fenris part 2 arrives.

          • The Rout

            Damn phone!

      • Rob brown

        I want rules that mean CSM are fun to play and have some flavour beyond what i chose to name my HQ’s. Its a really easy fix – an article in WD with chapter tactics for the Chaos Legions. Fixed!

      • Charon

        Top tier is not overpowerd. The big guys play nicely with each other.
        Also CSM do want also other books like nids, orcs IG, DE,… elevated to a competitive level. No one should be left behind.
        If this is actually entitlement what do you call space marine players then who got most supplements, a powerful book, the most broken formations an new special mini each month with free rules like a 14 point ID plasma gun or an 18″ melta that does not go worse on long range.
        And on top of this you STILL hear them moaning that their favorite niche chapter is not supported as much as ultramarines.
        THAT is entitlement.
        You can only have special treatment or privileges if your are ALREADY treated equal. Which is not the case for CSM.

      • Mike Linke

        I didn’t play chaos under the 3.5 codex.

        I just want to live in a world where 1850 points of the models I own aren’t completely wiped off the table by all but the most inept or generous opponents.

        • The Rout

          Have you tried playing bigger games? My friend group play big games that are limited to one codex and its supplements so no super friends or crazy stars. I assure you that the differences in codex power gets smaller and smaller the more points you play.

          • Christopher Conway

            This is true we play 5k games and it leaves less of a gap but to be fair mate I’ve still not won a game in about 1 year and a half now?

          • The Rout

            More than they iirc and that probably isn’t just codex related 😀 Had the same problem when you used BA and before I used wulfen. We also switched armies that time and you remember how that went. I’ll never let you forget :p happy to do so again…

          • Christopher Conway

            Ba were fine before the power corner and even then still fine really. You can’t expect a codex to account for superheavies. We can defo switch when im back from south Africa. If we play on a Saturday we can play at least two 5k games in a row? Let’s switch n u can play a few games wih ny new chaos ill use ur wolfen army 😊 I want one game normal first though after all this building I’ve done recently! Still waiting on the other 40 cultists royal mail are takin their sweet time! But we should do a few crossovers if you want to make a point of it not just one and ftr I think I was getting around to better formulas pre wolfen! All that time with no invisibility also! Lol what a chump I think I am one of the few peeps on here that has to admit I fail to use the best tools rather than the codex sucking completely. Although I could use a few tweeks in 8th pls gw! I’d like a way to cut through SS pls or purchase SS myself 😊

          • The Rout

            We will have many crossovers. I know exactly how to handle my army 🙂

        • Charles Keeling

          Well there are 1850 chaos armies that wipe the floor with others all the same; you just have to have those models. The armies that are tabling you chose to only field the most powerful units/combos. Either reach for your best or play with people willing to tone down their list like you have.

          Eldar, Tau and Marines only have a handful of top units. Play an Eldar army with the Avatar sprinkled with guardians and see how the tables turn. The problem is in either their mindset or yours, step one would be to find an agreement as to how competitive your match is going to be.

          • Pyrrhus of Epirus

            can you post some tournament results that back up this statement?

            and no a person using a KDK army, with a knight, and a cabal is not a chaos space marine list. And if your writing about your local game, thats cool, but for the most part the people on this site/discussion, are more concerned with tournament play and balance at that level

          • Karru

            The real question is to ask them to post a CSM army list where majority of units are consisting of Chaos Space Marine unit entry.

        • Zingbaby

          Stop playing against Eldar?

          Eldar are pretty darn broken – but CSM with supplements are capable of winning games.

          If you ‘insist’ on trying to do it with just a single codex/book, well that’s on you, cuz we all know there are better ways.

      • Nyyppä

        To make CSM players enjoy the game. It’s as simple as that.

        • The Rout

          See this is the bit i have never understood. I have had a terrible codex in the past that i was stuck with for years. It never interrupted my enjoyment of the game. GW doesn’t need to and cannot write certain words on a page for you to enjoy your army. Enjoying your army is your decision, not the rules’.

          I agree legion rules amongst the other updates would be nice but i don’t agree they are required for enjoyment. I love my SW army, i loved them through 5th and 6th even though GW gave me nothing until 7th. If you remember SW got their update during the bland beginnings of 7th so i (like many other armies) need supplements to be viable. And i loved them in that time too. This is what makes me think (i’d love to be proven wrong on this) that CSM player NEED power to have fun.

          I think that people spend too much time looking at what they don’t have in this game. I also think the internet makes people say more cynical things because cynicism is equated to intelligence here. I know what I’m saying is subjective as hell but know this. No matter what GW writes or fails to write i will love my space furries because thats my choice to make, not theirs 🙂

          • Xodis

            “Enjoying your army is your decision, not the rules’.”

            This is false. Part of a “Player’s” enjoyment comes from playing the game. The hobbyist/collector enjoys his hobby because rules are not a factor.

            There is nothing worse than seeing a specialized unit like Raptors/Berzerkers/etc… have perfect conditions only to have the rules F*** them over completely. The blessings of the Dice Gods come and go, so Im not even talking about the dice screwing over a player (thats just how it goes), but when all the rules literally prevent a unit from performing its only purpose….that is a problem.

          • Zingbaby

            “There is nothing worse” …that — that is entitlement.

            We all want our brand of toys to be on equal footing with other brands of toys – but there is plenty worse.

          • Xodis

            Not from a gaming perspective. Sure there are a lot of real issues that are worse….but do you really expect them to be discussed in a gaming forum? Its not the place or even appropriate.
            Thats also not entitlement, its expected by definition
            “game:a form of play or sport, especially a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck.” Not by having the better rules advantage.

          • Zingbaby

            First, even from a “gaming perspective” there is plenty worse.

            Second – the CSM codex is OLD, if you stubbornly unwilling to use supplements and even perhaps add Daemons (that were included in the fabled 3.5 CSM book) – then the problem is you.

            Is the ‘combined’ CSM/supplement/etc force as good as Eldar? …nope – nothing is at the moment.

            Traitors Hate IS good – even if it’s not exactly what CSM players wanted.

          • Xodis

            What’s worse from a gaming perspective?

            Yes the codex is old, everyone knows it, and I never expected to get a new one until 8e (after it was obvious that there would not be a 7e upgrade), that still doesn’t change the original point I commented to or anything we have discussed.

            As for the last 2 points, I wouldn’t know, my CSM are still in the Warp (Their storage box) until a codex comes out that properly represents them.

            I started playing during 5e, loved CSM so I then got involved in their fluff, shortly after was curious WTF happened in the translation between narrative to playability. So I’m not even crying for a 3.5 dex I never played.

          • Zingbaby

            Weird because CSM are so much better now than they were in 5th edition because of the supplements.

            People desperately cling to the ‘single codex’ idea, and that is a choice – not a good one though.

            Also there are several codex far worse off than even single-book CSM.

          • Xodis

            “Also there are several codex far worse off than even single-book CSM.” And? People being in worse situations, doesn’t mean you forget the ones that are still in a bad situation. Ironically enough that was part of your Avatars political stance.

            I wouldn’t call CSM “better” as much as they took a small leap forward in the power creep (power isn’t always better), while still maintaining the status quo of a few SPAMed units over a diverse army.

            The “single codex” idea should be the standard (as the game is expensive enough without having to buy multiple expensive rulebooks), but I’m also not advocating for that either. KDK was a great idea….so why stop there? Where is NDK, TDK, and SDK? Im all for supplements and think there should be no fewer than 5 CSM books to properly represent how vast Chaos is.

            Im also waiting for that worse gaming scenario that tops having a unit be completely useless/ineffective even in the best of situations.

          • Zingbaby

            Yes it would be better if every codex was single or with supplements was on equal footing, but that’s not what this is about and my comment was directly following your “nothing worse”.

          • Xodis

            Exactly, but you haven’t said what could possibly be worse from a gaming perspective.

          • Zingbaby

            Do you want me to list every weaker unit and/or codex? …uhh nah, I think we all know they exist.

          • Xodis

            No because a weaker unit or codex isn’t the point since it would still perform the exact same which is without use.

            I said “There is nothing worse than seeing a specialized unit *insert ANY UNIT HERE* have perfect conditions only to have the rules F*** them over completely.”

            You said there are worse things, so give a single example. I didn’t mean that Berserkers or Raptors were the worse, nor did I type that, as can be seen with the etc…

          • Zingbaby

            Uhh ok if we are doing this (for some reason) …you could try a null deploy army and lose turn 1 because not enough came on and what did got shot up. Your drop-pod with deathstar could scatter off the table and die; your flyer with deathstar could crash and kill everyone; your super heavy could explode taking out half your backfield etc etc…

          • Xodis

            Thats not worse though, that’s a gamble the general (you) took and didn’t pay out. You made that choice so its your fault…you didn’t lose to your own rules.

          • Zingbaby

            Eh when it happens – it’s pretty bad… if your criteria is “All rules” then that is pretty encompassing but I’ll say what’s worse than having the rules fail you, is playing against a jagoff or ‘that guy’ which we’ve all faced at some point.

          • Xodis

            I don’t see that as a gaming issue, but more of a community issue. I don’t play with people I don’t really know (even though some people I know are still that type of character) so it’s less an issue about the game for me. I can see how someone else might see it that way however.

            Again though, those other issues are pretty bad and I’m not saying they are not, but its a risk/reward scenario, if it worked out it would have been awesome for you, and that’s my point. Even when that type of luck works out for some of the worse units….its still not even worth it. Which is why we have units that are considered a “waste” of points.

          • Xodis

            Also those are worst case scenarios, my example was specifically a BEST case scenario, so yes a unit can always have it worse by bad luck, but again its sad when a unit can NEVER have it better even with good luck.

          • Richard Mitchell

            “Enjoying your army is your decision, no the rules” is a weird outlook for a customer.

          • Nyyppä

            Good for you. I have no doubt that if the now top armies would get new codices that would drop them to the level of sisters the uproar would be so epic that CSM players would sound small barking dogs compared to that.

            Anyway, it’s a game. Games have winners and losers. If that tatus is determined before lists are made it’s a bad design.

    • Karru

      Yes, you are entitled when you refuse to fall in line with everyone else and stop playing with armies you like. Don’t you understand anything that goes on here? You have to stop playing the army that you loved so much since they came out and was made worse and worse over the years and now in order to stay competitive you have to abandon it. That’s how it works.

    • Strategery.

      hey i just want you to know that as a khorne player i still think of you guys. every time a new khorne model or unit or formation is released i think to myself “wow, what about the other gods?” and it becomes a stranger situation as more releases come out. i might have started collecting other gods or even other armies if the releases stopped, but between 40k and AOS (ohhh the conversions have been amazing) its been like what? 2 years?

      • Diagoras

        Don’t patronize me.

        But seriously, though, I do appreciate the thought. And I want to make it clear that I bear no ill will towards any Khorne player, (Well, no more than anyone else. I bear a little ill will towards pretty much everyone. I do play Chaos, remember) and I really don’t dislike Khorne that much. I’m just not a fan of his aesthetic, and it’s just hard seeing my favorite God slip into aeons past while Khorne gets release after release.

        And I honestly could not tell you when CSM last got something new and Tzeentchy. No idea. AoS Tzeentch got some love from Silver Tower, (Which is unfortunate, as I don’t play AoS. Prefer the Science Fiction setting) but CSM… Way longer than two years, I’m sure.

    • TexBlade

      Check your entitlement privilege!

      • Nyyppä

        😀

      • Mike Linke

        Entitlement privilege: check. Right where I left it, thank you.

    • Zingbaby

      The fact that you are here on a tirade about how your specific flavor of toys is not as good as some other flavor of toys — pretty much spells in every literal sense of the word: Entitlement.

    • Richard Mitchell

      Entitlement is such a weird buzz word to use for customers. Yes, customers are “entitled” to what they pay for. In America when we say “entitlements” we usually mean government assistance, something that people are expected to give to you. But when you are a customer, you bought things so you are not “entitled” you purchased something that you worked hard for to earn. This is two fold in miniature hobby gaming because you are not just a customer you are invested in the product. Having to buy multiple supplements to be competitive is…well greasy.

      • Wayne Molina

        It makes sense in some regards, but not in the way GW does it, mainly because they charge about twice as much for their books/supplements as they reasonably should.

      • The hobby is a luxury.

    • Josh

      Amen. I thought i left it behind me as well when I started playing Dark Eldar, and then GW went and nerfed that army as well. So now I have two worthless forces. 🙂 All is dust, brother.

      • Drew_Da_Destroya

        I feel you, although my two are DE and Orks. Stay strong. One day we’ll have our brief moment in the sun before the nerf bats come again.

    • silver843

      Agreed. Not everyone wants Khorne yet for some reason GW wants all Khorne all the time. Chaos is more than just blood and skulls. Chaos has gotten incrediblely boring and one dimensional recently, which is a shame bc it has the potential to be so much more.

    • Lord of Change is like 5x better than a bloodthirster!

  • The Rout

    This article is amazing but not necessarily in a good way. I’ve made essentially the same comments a few times regarding the problem of entitlement and nostalgia with CSM players.

    CSM players do seem to believe that they have some sort of god (s) given right to be as powerful as the upper tier armies. Unfortunately true balance in this game is an impossible fairy tale and some armies need to be near the bottom. It sucks if that’s the army you love obviously but better to be weak with a lot of options and content than neglected and weak like some other armies.

    That being said I’m just a commenter so i can say what i like with very litte effect. may be a little on the nose to make an article in the same tone. Very deliberately inflammatory but I’m sure it will make an interesting comments section.

    • Wayne Molina

      Nobody wants to be as powerful as the upper tier armies (mainly because the huge gap between “regular” and “upper tier” is proof of terrible game design). But nobody should have to suffer because they are using a trash codex or be told to stop whining and go spend even more money on expensive resin stuff to “make up for it”. All Chaos (and Orks, and Dark Eldar and Tyranids, and I guess SOB) want is to be brought in line with the average power level to have a fighting chance without resorting to gimmicks. One of the biggest issues I see in 40k is that almost everything that works is a combination of gimmicks or skews or power-combos, there’s no balanced combinations anymore (maybe some Marine ones since technically Gladius or the Dark Angel version are “balanced armies” that get a ton of free stuff) so you end up seeing armies that look crazy on the battlefield instead of more normalized representations of what those armies would actually look like.

      Besides, the 3.5 Codex wasn’t even insanely crazy by today’s standards.

      • By today’s standards is a pointless comparison.

        • Wayne Molina

          It is, but it doesn’t change the fact that by today’s standards Chaos is pitifully weak, and pointing to 3.5 as justification that it’s okay is just as pointless.

          • You have a pitiful mantra to which you cling… CSM can be strong but you don’t want to adapt.

          • Karru

            Once again, you use the word adapt and ignore the fact that in order to “adapt” CSM players have to avoid CSM.

          • Wayne Molina

            Nobody but you seem to say this outside of the typical skew lists, which I don’t find appealing to take just the juiciest parts and throw them together.

          • Zingbaby

            Guy the supplements are there, and are actually decent – if you choose not to use them and cling stubbornly to the single-codex idea, that’s kind of on you.

            Traitor Hate might not have been exactly what you want, but it’s a pretty good book – still not Eldar or SM-Gladius level, but then nothing else really is.

          • Karru

            I’ve been reading your comments here and I can see one thing very clearly. If someone gave you a nuclear device and you set it off inside a barn named “The Point”, you’d somehow be able to miss it.

            The point is that CSM, as in the unit Chaos Space Marine, is literally the worst option in the CSM book. Using your logic, Sisters have absolutely no problems and don’t need a book. They can just ally themselves with Imperials, like Space Marines! The only thing that those supplements gave CSM players is more options to avoid CSM. Again, all tournament winning lists of “CSM” is KDK with nothing but Khorne Daemons and the Black Legion Supplement Cabal.

          • Zingbaby

            Which is funny because you missed the point of the OP’s article… the CSM codex, and the unit “chaos space marine” are part of an old book… the supplements are there, they exist for that reason, and are decent – you don’t want to use them and cling stubbornly to the single-codex idea – well that is your choice.

          • Karru

            I don’t cling to it, since I play every other army than Chaos these days. I play Imperial Guard and Space Marines, with a Knight thrown in for good measure.

            The article basically says that veterans that loved CSM during 3.5 and then lost the entire army when it was completely remade, not just nerfed, and was made something that wasn’t what they had. This is basically the same situation as was with AoS and Fantasy. 4th edition and later 6th edition codex made CSM into worse SM. They stopped being the army it was during 3.5. That is why veteran players are bitter. They want their army back.

          • Zingbaby

            And the funniest part about that is — they CAN have it back, but they need to use the supplements and Daemons (which were included in the 3.5 CSM book)… there are still a few builds from that old book that are hard to represent – I get it – but that was 10 years ago and these are toys… seriously?

          • Karru

            Actually, they can’t have it back. They can have it back about as you can have a sandwich you just ate. Not a new sandwich, the one that is now inside your stomach.

            Those Supplement didn’t give even 1% of the stuff that was in 3.5 Codex back. You can ally with Daemons, this no one can argue. Remember, only Crimson Slaughter and Black Legion are supplements for the CSM. KDK is a codex.

            I’ll give you one of the major things that I hate extremely about the current book compared to 3.5, Mutations. GW has this idea that Mutations are not stable and change around randomly. In 3.5, you bought them and they didn’t change. Now they are locked behind a D66 table and Possessed have an RNG table as well.

            I’m trying to emphasis on this point, but you seem to ignore it. The difference between 3.5 CSM and 4th/6th CSM is the exact same as is with Fantasy and AoS. They have same units and some things that are identical, but they are completely different in every other aspect, including play style, options and feel.

          • Wayne Molina

            No. Saying oh just take a Cyclopia Cabal from BL, the Lost and the Damned formation, and Typhus to make them all zombies or similar does nothing if I don’t want to play that way. Your “CSM can be strong” has the caveat only if you give in to the proliferation of skew/spam lists that people throw together with little or no regard for the background. Like, I think it was you actually, who had a “Night Lords” army article posted here that had nothing like the Night Lords other than like some Raptors, even took a Daemon Prince and a Renegade Knight, presumably, just for the bonuses to the list.

            The problem is that CSM (and many others too) seem forced into the Catch-22 of either having to sacrifice the fluff and backstory of the army (e.g. CSM but I don’t want to play anything with Nurgle) or suck and get told you just aren’t playing the strength’s of the army. Yet is it not a glaring design flaw if you are forced into a particular build of an army whether it suits you or not in order to be considered “strong”?

          • Zingbaby

            You could sum that all up to “I don’t want to play that way”… which is your choice of course – not necessarily a good one though.

          • Wayne Molina

            How so? It’s not necessarily a good choice to say “I don’t want to play mono-Nurgle, but I have to if I want to win”? In what world is that good design?

          • Zingbaby

            You’re in luck then, you don’t have to play just mono-Nurgle to win. You have plenty of options – why does it make ANY difference if some of them are outside of the core CSM codex? …it’s an old book, the supplements are there for exactly that reason.

          • Wayne Molina

            Maybe because it’s still piss-poor game design to say here’s a book you need to play, but you also need 2-3 other supplements and maybe an even more expensive book from Forgeworld on top of anything else to actually be useful.

            Codexes are (were?) supposed to be essentially “batteries included” but nowadays they are the equivalent to buying a new car and getting a crate of parts with instructions how to put them together yourself.

          • Zingbaby

            I might even agree with you – but still you CAN adapt, you just choose not to because you are clinging to what ‘used to be’.

          • Karru

            Once again, the adapting part here is to avoid the main book as much as possible. These days you only want the KDK book and Black Legion Supplement. Then you just get a PDF copy of the Sorcerer entry and possibly Cultists and you are good to go.

          • Zingbaby

            Tell me why that makes ANY difference? …sure you have to buy more than one book, but otherwise what difference does it make if it’s one book or 3 books?

            Because you only insist on using a single-codex?

          • Karru

            BECAUSE IT IS NOT CSM!
            TRY TO GET IT TROUGH YOUR CONCRETE REINFORCED SKULL!

            KDK is not CSM, it’s KDK. Different Codex, it is not a supplement. Also, with KDK you only use Khorne Daemons, since CSM units are overpriced and useless compared to the Daemon units.

            Let’s try a different approach, maybe then you realise what I’m trying to get at.

            If I removed all Ork units (Ork boyz, nobz, basically everything that was an Ork) from the Ork codex, meaning I only played Grots and Killa Kans, am I still playing an Ork army? How about if I played an SM army that had 2 units of Scouts and nothing but Knights/Imperial Guard allies as the rest of the army, am I still playing SM?

          • Zingbaby

            You mean it’s not in a single-book. Again, what difference does that make?

            Traitors Hate IS CSM and as you know, Daemons were in the 3.5-CSM book, they were “CSM” then – GW chose to split the books but you CAN use both.

          • Zingbaby

            Even in your daft example — let’s say you remove Daemons from the 3.5 CSM codex (which actually happened) …now you have 2 separate books – but guess what – you can still use them both! Yay!

          • Karru

            Okay, this is going to be my last post on this topic. If you don’t get my point, I just can’t help you.

            I’m not talking about the splitting, since I personally don’t care. Daemons got their own book which is good, since it gives a lot more for CSM to ally with, all their “rewards”, Psychic Powers etc. I’m not talking about things like this. I don’t care about the fact that CSM is split across 3 books and has 2 supplements and now the Traitor’s Hate. You can use them all you want without “restrictions”.

            My point is this. People, like you, keep repeating one line over and over and over again. “CSM is still competitive and can beat even Eldar, you veterans just need to adapt and stop whining.” The problem is that if you want your CSM to be competitive, you have to remove CSM from the list. No top-tier CSM list has Chaos Space Marines in them. They have only Khorne Daemons, Cultists and Chaos Sorcerers. When these people say that they are playing Chaos Space Marines, I laugh since that is not correct. They are playing Khorne Daemons with CSM allies. Yes, they use the KDK book, but it isn’t the CSM book. Even if they use the CSM book as their main source, it’s always just Cultists and the Cabal, nothing more.

            This is the point I’m trying to make you realise.

            Again, to repeat myself to make sure you understand. I have nothing against using multiple detachments or sources, even if it means removing lot of the strategy from the game, since I use it myself. I use multiple detachments with my SM/IG. I use Knights and Assassins. I don’t use actual “allies” that much due to personal preference, but I will use them if my army lacks something very critical.

            My problem is when people try to say that an army is competitive by just looking at a tournament result that says “KDK army got into Top 10” and then try to use it as an argument that CHAOS SPACE MARINES are competitive, they are very, very wrong. It is not Chaos Space Marines that are competitive, it is Khorne Daemons and 7th edition rule bending and breaking.

          • Zingbaby

            Well first I’ve NEVER said any incarnation of chaos can compete with Eldar… at face value really not much can compete with Eldar.

            Second – with the legendary 3.5 codex, nobody ever used Chaos Space marines either… they used legion vets, which can you still use now. Should the standard chaos marine be better? – yes, and Traitors Hate makes them a tiny bit better (still not enough I know).

            This article comes in right after one of the _biggest_ “supplement updates” in the game so far with Traitors Hate – you are actively choosing to ignore that it exists – it IS CHAOS SPACE MARINES (not KDK) — and it IS competitive versus most armies, though sadly like everything else – not competitive with Eldar.

            If you’re waiting for your old CSM codex to suddenly ‘be good’ then I totally agree that the problem is you, and your inability to adapt. The CSM book is old – the very reason we have supplements, yes KDK is one of them – but not the only and TH is pretty good! You are willfully choosing to ignore that fact because you’re clinging to some very narrow version of CSM that exists in your mind and not in the actual game or the fluff.

          • Karru

            How is this the biggest supplement update? I’d argue that the AoD book was the biggest and will remain so most likely forever. At least until they release something else for SM.

            Also, I am not ignoring the TH book, it just doesn’t offer CSM anything better and nowhere near equal than what the the KDK/Cabal combo offers. Also, these “most armies” you mentioned are Dark Eldar, Orks, Tyranids and all the other mid tier armies. A “pure” CSM army, one that uses the TH book Detachment for example, cannot even compete against most Imperial Armies, especially SM. Those Gravs will just laugh them to the next week.

            You also seem to praise the TH book like it is the coming of Christ. If it works for you, great. For me it doesn’t do the trick. It doesn’t offer me anything as a fluff player that the SM book cannot do a lot better. I am an Iron Warriors fan at heart and unfortunately neither the TH book nor CSM book offer something that the SM book cannot do much better in terms of accuracy to the fluff and logical upgrades/wargear.

          • Zingbaby

            First I said ‘one of the biggest’ supplements… and it is. Secondly TH absofricklutely can compete with most armies… exception being Eldar (like everyone else) and some of the Codex:SM builds (like everyone else). It offers plenty – but I never said it’s the coming of Christ.

            If you’re an Iron Warriors player your argument is more than ridiculous – of any CSM “legion” in the game right now, 10000 years after the legions were created, the Traitors Hate book can do IW incredibly well, you didn’t get any win-buttons but you certainly got the stuff that makes IW flavored armies.

          • Karru

            Not really. IW is still relatively whole. They still use the same tactics they used during HH. CSM book unfortunately doesn’t offer anything that the SM book cannot do MUCH better. Iron Hands Chapter Tactic and on top of that take the AoD Detachment. Boom, 100x better IW army than the CSM book can give you. In terms of power level AND fluff presentation. They can ally with Guard to get Heavy Artillery, they can take all the SM artillery to enhance their arsenal. On top of that they have better Techmarines AND FNP to top it off.

            You basically have to choose between Space Dinos and Obliterators or Heavy Artillery, Renegade Guard, Realistic Weapon Arsenal and better rules. Hard decision really.

            TH doesn’t do IW well. Iron Warriors despise Mutations more than any other Chaos Legion, instead they remove them and replace them with Bionics. Go ahead and read what the TH benefits are in the Warband and the Detachment one, I’ll wait. Do they sound like something Iron Warriors want?

            They also don’t care about Daemons or Possessed. People seem to think that Iron Warrios ONLY use Tanks and Dinos. This is definitely not the case.

            Only thing that the TH offers in terms of competitiveness is the ability to spam small units of Obliterators and Terminators. The Warband gives you Ob. Sec. but you have to take it into hard consideration is it better to just take CAD and Plague Marines that have Ob. Sec. that are superior to any unit in the Warband Formation. You seem to forget that the CSM units are still extremely expensive and some of those formations suffer from major oversight.

            Raptor Talon cannot DS accurately nor is there any reasonable way to get them guaranteed on the turn you want. This forces you to take small units of 5 since the more you take, even greater amount is placed in reserve thus making your board easier to wipe. Another reason to take small units is the lack of DS accuracy. Large units have bigger risk to scatter and die instantly or be placed to the corner of the table when they come in since you have to place them close to the enemy to get that charge in. Small units don’t do enough damage and once again we are in the questioning phase of “should I just take something else other than this formation”.

            The major problem with TH is the fact that it still doesn’t give you a strategy or plan to build around. All it does is give you more RNG rolls with the Boons. Then you have to take into consideration that you lose half of the benefit from taking it when facing non-Imperial armies, which do exist. It helps Black Legion players to play their army, but almost every other legion is better off with the SM book.

  • Charon

    So the solution to not make CSM suck is basically “don’t play CSM but combine CD and KDK and maybe throw a cabal in”
    I have also discovered a very good way making DE competitive. Substitute them with Eldar.

    • MarcoT

      This. I think most CSM players are way past their 3.5 codex. Most of us want their signature unit to be worth something, you know, the unit the codex is named after.

      And personally I’d like more wackiness. Marines have grav, Mechanicus have… weird stuff, necrons have gauss, GSC will get cocooned, bloody Space Wolves got frost… where’s our unique weapons? I love the daemon engine route, but now my marines need to get something hellforged in their hands.

      • Pyrrhus of Epirus

        Totally agree, the ONLY time i ever see 3.5 referenced is when some clueless idiot brings it up like anybody is clamoring for it. Ill take any sort of mildly competative codex, i dont need the best codex period.

      • Karru

        But you are forgetting the most important and broken rule in the game! THE CHAOS BOON TABLE! That is our insane and unique rule we can base our entire tactics around! Just take the Gift of Chaos Upgrade and roll just the result you want! If you don’t, just forfeit and try again!

    • Skathrex

      As a DE and Chaos player THIS is exactly the problem.
      When I look for allies as DE I got Harlequins. I never even think about Eldar because if I start that route I will just end up playing DE.
      Even if you start simple: “I want an autarch for the Banshee mask to help my Wyches, oh I need a troups choice, why not Jetbikes, hmm a second unit and I can take a Wraithknight..etc.”
      I nearly stoped playing KDK when Fenris droped because I could just play Khorne Daemons in a stronger fashion that way.
      But Chaos has the advantage (or disadvantage) of not beeing able to mix and match that good, because of Daemonic Instability. So with Chaos (taking the Cabal+hounds out) it still feels more like 2 forces fighting together.

      • Charon

        It hink the worst issue is when you say “CSM suck” people only understand “Chaos sucks” and start trying to argue with KDK and CD. Which is not the pont as this is not the CSM codex.
        Thats like answering to “hey, Sisters really need a codex!” with “shut up Space Marines is strong enough, imperial armies do not get to complain!”

        • Skathrex

          True or partially, KDK is a weird hybrid with the strenght of Daemons and the weakness of CSM. But for CD this is certanly true. They may be outdated, but are still very strong

          • Charon

            Well said… KDK is basically kept alive by good CD units without instability, Dinobots and the bloodtithe. If you compare costs it is still a mess and lets you realize how overcosted CSM actually are. Defiler and Soulgrinder in the same book. Cultists with MoK vs Bloodletters.

          • Skathrex

            But the idea behind KDK was SOOO GOOD 🙁
            And yes Soulgrinder and Defiler side by side is a real atrocity…

          • Charon

            The Idead was great and if it came with an AOS crossover (I would have given a Kidney for Berzerkers on Juggernauts) it would have been amazing. Like this it is just a wasted ide which dies down once CD or CSM get a new book.

          • Skathrex

            Sadly yes, and I really really want my version of Thunderwolfes.
            Would be so awesome, especially since we have awesome looking models already

          • nurglitch

            At least the Defiler can take a Dirge Caster.

          • Skathrex

            yes…yes….no…….:( I dont think that should be worth the points.
            But hey, the defiler looks cooler.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            I never thought of that, wow, that solves all the issues…

          • nurglitch

            You’re welcome!

    • ZeeLobby

      Lol. I hate when people suggest that I do that with my DE. I’m like: no. I bought $100s worth of DE to play DE. I don’t want to play Eldar.

      • Wayne Molina

        Yep but that’s basically what a lot of the anti-CSM comments are boiling down to; you can play what you want, but you have to do it this way if you want any chance at all. It would be the equivalent of telling a DE player to just proxy them as Eldar instead (which you often see people tell CSM players to just proxy them using Codex: Space Marines instead)

        • ZeeLobby

          Yeah, it’s sad. You’ll notice it’s almost never from a person who actually plays that faction either. “I mean sure my Eldar work great, you should just include those”. If the tables were flipped and DE was needed to make Eldar playable, they’d be all offended that you suggest they include DE…

          The game would really benefit from some rebalancing.

          • Wayne Molina

            Yes it would. I Mean, I totally understand “stopgap” measures but saying basically hey just use this other faction that’s kinda like yours but not quite and plays much better because reasons is downright insulting. I get that someone might say it’s not an idea solution but it’s better than being trash, but there are people who actually think that is *okay* as an actual solution.

    • There are excellent stand alone de armies but that’s the topic of another discussion.

    • Andrew Thomas

      You mean “Reavers, Scourges, and Null Deploying Pain Engines.”

  • Nameless

    The problems with Chaos Marines are in my mind more fundamental, they are neither Imperium nor Xenos.

    When an Imperium book gets an update, that stats don’t change (with a few exceptions like scouts) a bolt gun as a set stat line, a lasgun has a set stat line so new weapons are introduced; Grav weapons, Hot shot volley guns, Frost cannons, Blood cannons (there not a thing? give it time). Even their tanks work this way, same chassis new gun on top call it a new vehicle.

    now when a Xenos army gets an update, their stats are fluid. a few codex’s ago splinter and shuriken basic weapons where S3 AP5, burst cannons only fired 3 shots (okay I can’t remember the Tau books all that well). New weapons do appear but they are usually limited to the new unit rather than being generally available.

    Chaos Marines see neither of these changes, they are marines and their stats don’t change, they have standard weapons (bolters, autocannon metla/plasma) and they don’t change (I think there have been twiddles with sonic weapons), but they also don’t find brand new weapons for their armies either. the only new things they see are on the new units in the most recent case Dino bots.

    • Douglas Lang

      A minor pedant point but shuriken weapons have been str4 since second edition if not before.

      • Nameless

        hmm I seem to remember them having the same stats as hellguns ~ but memory is a fickle thing I’m sure you are correct.

        *shuriken weapons lost the ability to borrow next turns shooting and gained rending

        • Wayne Molina

          Are you perhaps forgetting that Guardians in 2nd edition had Lasguns, not Shuriken weapons (IIRC they were an upgrade, but they didn’t have Shuriken Catapults baseline until 3rd edition).

    • Charon

      Stats may not change, but USR do. CSM basically stayed the same since 3rd edition while SM got more and more USR.

      • Karru

        And so did basically everyone else. Special Rules that matter and actually effect the game. The Champion of Chaos and the Boon Table does not impact the game in any positive manner.

    • … Oblits …

      • Nyyppä

        Well, those fit the description right up until SM got centurions.

        • lol I remember when people said Centurions are garbage and they only really work well by manipulating them with other units. Oblits work well on their own and have 5++ to boot.

          • Nyyppä

            Those were the days. Now we know that neither statement is true.

    • Wayne Molina

      They need to just have a solid view of how Chaos should be. They don’t, and really never did since they’ve changed it more than any other faction in the history of the game. Chaos is like the only faction that has a good chance of totally changing between codexes because the designers just can’t seem to get what it should be in the game.

      • Nameless

        what about Necrons, going from the soulless near mindless slaves of the C’tan to the current dynasties came as a big overhaul and retcon of a lot of the preexisting lore.

        • Wayne Molina

          Yes but if I remember right they didn’t change too much with how they play in the actual game while chaos tends to usually have sweeping changes with things even if it usually ends up being Marines and daemons in some form.

          • Nameless

            pre-recont a necron army was limited to almost exclusively foot slogging warriors, a necron lord and a monolith ( – a huge difference to the mass transport, and much greater variety of troops. Necron’s play wise probably changed more at that point than any army has in one codex,

  • Ian Plumpton

    “and even Tau”

    Eldar are far worse than Tau if played properly.

    • ZeeLobby

      Tau is actually a middle tier army, at least in the competitive scene, right now. The gap between them, CD, SM and Eldar is pretty massive. I went to a recent 50 player Uber competitive tournament and the 4 Tau armies that attended were in the bottom 10, and that’s with dual stormsurge, drone net and 5 riptides.

  • Odsox

    TLDR: “Got a problem? Throw more money at it!”

    I didn’t start playing KHAYOSS SPESS MAHREENS until the codex just before the most recent one, so I’m no veteran, but my problem stems from this attitude that you can resolve a bad codex by buying more codexes. Codices. Whatever. I want a solid codex that can stand on its own two feet; not one that can only be any good if I buy three more books.

    • ZeeLobby

      Lol. But I’m sure GW wants you to buy those books. Maybe it’s on purpose?

  • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

    I didnt play the 3.5 codex as I was having a break from the hobby, but the 4th ed codex was demonstrably worse than all the chaos material before it, and yet all subsequent chaos books have been based on it.

    We want rules that reflect the character of the legions. Why shouldnt my Alpha Legion feel different to my Iron Warriors? It is hardly rocket science to achieve.

    Chaos Marines themselves are very poor and none of the supplements change that, however many sources you use.

    The real problem isnt power level, I win regularly, far more often than I lose with CSM. The problem is GWs ideas of Chaos don’t tally with the vast majority of players.

    The fact this article focuses on power level shows BBF has also completely missed the point.

  • disqus_CktyL7rKWJ

    BBF feeling entitled to point his finger at others.

    • Wayne Molina

      I would not trust the word of someone whose avatar is a trollface wearing a Marine helmet. Judging from his normally condescending posts to anyone who disgrees, he’s not here to discuss he’s here to just state his viewpoint, rile people up, and scurry off. The literal definition of a troll.

      • You are pathetic in every sense

        • Xodis

          The same is said about you, quite often in fact. You troll, it has to be common knowledge by now.

  • Skathrex

    I generally agree with your article. Chaos isn’t as bad as it is portrayed and suffers from the fact that most CSM Players experienced the “good” times in the past.
    Its always harder to live with less if you have experienced more.
    However I think you article falls a bit…don’t know how to say it…flat?
    There is so much more to the “Traitor’s Hate” than just entitlement.
    Yes I think you strike a true point, and yes I am a strong believer that you can play good armies and have fun builds with Chaos.
    HOWEVER! You missed some crucial points for CSM Players and its the HOW we can play.
    Maybe its time to say goodbye and really call it Codex: Heretics more than Codex Chaos Space Marines, but for many players the Horus Heresy, the Legions and the Cult troops is what got them interested in CSM.
    These are the points that are lacking right now and these are the things many CSM Player complain about.
    We may have a TON of options (and we do). The Problem is that when you compare it to Eldar. They don’t have to think what they want to take. As an Eldar player just roll dice an pick the corresponding Units. Chances are, your army will still be playable and not really bad. Thats not bad on the Eldar part, thats actually really good (and I think Eldar are the best designed Codex atm, with the exceptions of the well known 3-4 mistakes).
    While CSM have a ton of options, but unless you know you are playing a lot power game you are forced in certain options. I like sorcs from time to time, but I don’t want to be forced into taking a Cabal every time (especially not while playing Khorne).

    Thats something that should have been given some light in your article too.
    I am as exhausted with als the negativity from the CSM players as you are, but its not only their fault. Yes I think some wont ever be satisfied but they have some valid points to whats wrong.

    But overall I liked the article, or the core statement of it.
    I would rate it a solit 5/7

  • DDisforDangerous

    Solving issues by detachments is symptomatic of the larger issues of 7E, namely fixing things by throwing special rules at it. Tweaking a few numbers would be a lot more effective and efficient and could just as easily be done in a FAQ. I’d love for a a newer, more distinctive/flavourful codex (the Space Marines vanilla codex has more variety and granularity than Chaos, which is super counter-intuitive) but fixing the core issue of units being overpriced for what they do shouldn’t be this hard to fix.

  • Electrobix

    I would love to see more customization for Chaos to bring back the legion feel. I think this is why 30k has been so popular and they are missing a huge opportunity with the army. I think the same applies to Eldar, it would be great for the flavor of different craftworlds to be reflected in the rules, and no I don’t mean upping the power level before people pee their pants.

  • Chris Bingley

    “If you are open to change and willing to embrace the modern concept of using multiple sources then you can build powerful armies that are fun to play and have a strong theme…”

    So, what codex/supplement combination do you recommend for to play Iron Warriors to their lore. How do you field an Undivided Warpsmith Lord with Khorne Berserker troops, or basilisks?

    How do you field a Nightlords army where every model has jump packs?

    Hardcore CSM players, like me, have gotten used to being underpowered. Like the article says, we haven’t had any real power for over a decade. So we’ve adjusted. We can now beat our opponents with an underpowered codex. Balance isn’t the issue.

    The simple fact is that when GW released the 4th edition CSM codex they destroyed the ability to field armies themed around a specific legion. Can you imagine the uproar from the loyalist community if DA, BA, Templars and puppies had just been lumped into the vanilla SM codex, with no special rules or equipment? If Baal preds had been removed in the same way that Iron Warriors lost basilisks?

    As a Black Legion player, I’ve managed to avoid most of the theme destroying changes. Sure, I have to buy a separate book to field daemons, but I can live with that.

    Then there’s the issue of renegade chapters, like the Red Corsairs. Who are somehow limited to heresy era tech, despite having embraced Chaos a lot more recently.

    • Skathrex

      Not to rain on your parade but…
      …Templars are lumped in with Vanilla.

      As I wrote in my post to this article, he has a true point while missing some crucial points, and you are excactly the player he is adressing.
      You want the 3.5 Codex back, not the powerlvl (I find most players don’t want the powerlvl from that time but the options)

      As for Iron Warriors: Take Traitors hate with cultists or Warband Core + any of the Warpsmith formations. The only thing you lack is a Basilisk (wich you can get with FW Renegades).

      NL, just take Raptor Talons, or just take Warband + Raptor Talon. NL is not every Modell with Jump Pack btw.

      • Nyyppä

        Is that not just another warband without any actual Iron Warriors or NL. Are Ultra Marines not UM because of their chapter tactics?

        • Skathrex

          Nowadays maybe, but in the Past Ultras where Ultras because they where Blue and took certain Units, or Imperial Fists, or Iron Hands.
          Chapter Tactics are not that old, and before that it was fine to represent just by Unit selection

          • Nyyppä

            So the different SM never had any chapter specific rules before the latest codex?

          • Skathrex

            Not sure to be honest. Didn’t play much in 5th and 6th. I just remember them not having any when Chaos had their 3.5 dex.
            And even in the 3.5 dex most of the seperation was due to Unit selection (IW with Basilisk, lots of Kyborgs and Vindicators/Predators)

          • Nyyppä

            Well, I think there’s a dire need for improvement. We all have our ways to enjoy the hobby, but I don’t get any fun out of pimp slapping CSM like they were nothing. I doubt that the CSM players found that fun.

            Maybe if the parent company stated that some armies are there just for others to beat. If it is so and not just their lack of design skill the people who do not like that would just leave and the rest would be more or less happy. I mean, in any other industry it is impossible for a company to sell a product that in no way matches the sales speech and get away with it.

          • Skathrex

            I can’t disagree, the 3.5 Dex did Chaos Legions well, the question is, if that is ever going to be a theme for 40k again (especially since you can play them easily in 30k).

            I am desperatly holding on to an old rumor that the next chaos codex is comming out summer of 2017. So far its not unlikely anymore.
            At some point there has to be a new Codex and the timeframe looks like they could drop it after 8ed or at the end (or shortly before) of the Black Crusade

          • Nyyppä

            Let’s hope that it’s good. I’m pretty sure that CSM is the second or third most popular faction and right now it’s fans have no reason to play with it and thus pay GW for models for it. It’s bad business to let a popular faction to slump in to the position CSM is now.

          • Karru

            In 4th edition they had the ability to make their own Chapters. They could choose between Minor, Notable and Significant Divergence. Depending on your choice, you could take advantages and you were forced to take certain number of drawbacks.

            SM lost this ability when 5th came, but they gained things like Vulkan and got to keep their Bike Captain/Bike Troops Combo. Also Pedro and his scoring Sternguard were around.

          • Nyyppä

            So, essentially since 4th edition. Is that not right after CSM list theirs?

          • Karru

            The difference between the two was major. When 5th edition rolled for SM, they got a bunch of stuff, I’ll copy paste the list from a post I made long ago:

            Gained:
            Huron Blackhearth

            Lost:
            Legion Rules
            God Specific Rules
            Lieutenants
            Mutations
            Greater Daemons (not generic “summonable” as they became in 4th.)
            Daemons (same as above)
            Nurglings
            Daemonic Beasts
            “Basilisk” (This was understandable)
            Mark of the Undivided
            Cultists
            “Dark Apostles”
            God Specific Vehicles
            18 Unique Psychic Powers
            Every single God Specific “Relic” and Wargear
            Chosen “veteran skills”

            Let’s compare that to the change for SM codex from 4th to 5th edition:

            Gained:
            Pedro Kantor
            Vulkan
            Kor’sarro
            Cato Sicarius
            Tellion
            Master of the Forge
            Sternguard and the Special Issue Rounds
            Ironclad Dreadnought
            Legion of the Damned
            Thunderfire Cannon
            Land Raider Redeemer
            Chronus

            Lost:
            Chapter creation
            Tyrannic War Veterans
            Terminator Command Squad
            Wargear (but so did basically everyone when 5th rolled around)

            Also, when SM got their 6th edition update, they got their Chapter rules back. CSM was made even worse.

      • nurglitch

        Raptor Talon plus Warband is how I’m running my Night Lords at the moment. I have a Terminator Annihilation Force, a Helforged Warband, and a Fist of the Gods to sub in as the whim of the Gods strikes me.

  • Christie Bryden

    oh yes, we certainly are entitled what with the oldest codex in the game that was terrible when it first came out, factions wofully underrepresented, completly failure to capture the feel of the lore, seeing loyalists who are already a better codex get reprinted multible times.

    whats that, go to forge world, well then you fail, you shouldnt have to go to extra stuff the core should be decent, which it isnt. If one book can do good things on its own, and the other needs 5 different books and only token units from the core, then maybe the problem isnt us?

    but my solution is easy, boycot it all till its fixed, why waist money on terrible models and terrible rules. buliding up my iron jaws instead, they are fun.

  • Crablezworth

    Flame Bait

    • You dont understand – you just dont get it do you

      • Crablezworth

        Enlighten me good sir

  • Karru

    When you say that Chaos player “refuse” to adapt to the current way of multiple detachment in order to get what they want, I say you are wrong, good sir. Let’s start with some nice comparisons here. SM doesn’t need to do multiple detachments in order to reflect their fluff and theme. They can just pick a Chapter Tactic most of the time, but if they want to take it even further there is the AoD book. Eldar offers the possibility to take insanely fun and thematic armies with their Detachment and even as a normal CAD.

    Chaos offers nothing for thematic players outside Khorne or Nurgle. Slaanesh and Tzeentch armies both suffer greatly from the stupid Psychic Power rules that CSM has with their Marks. Then there is the overpricing, the lack of anything special for the regular CSM and the insane amount of nonsensical RNG that the army is now littered with. If you want to play Undivided armies, like Alpha Legion or Iron Warriors, you have to go SM in order to better represent them. If you want to be competitive with CSM you have to remove all CSM units in the list and focus mainly on Daemons.

    The big reason for CSM being so bad is the lack of everything special that you can make a coherent strategy with. They have nothing that makes them unique, fun or useful compared to almost all the other armies. The basic CSM has nothing. No special rules. Right from the start the CSM is worse than a Tac Marine and it comes even worse with the upgrades.

    Why so many go with KDK instead of CSM? They have the Bloodtithe table that removes the useless RNG Boon Table. They can buff their army, you can make a strategy around it. Multiple small units that, if killed, give you Bloodtithe points to use to buff the rest of your army. CSM has no base strategy to make a plan around. You can’t plan around rolling the exact result on a D66 table. Also, the KDK book is better thanks to the Khorne Daemons that you use instead of the overpriced CSM squads.

  • euansmith

    Oddly, I do think that customers are entitled to something for the companies they patronize. Especially if that company wishes to retain that patronage.

    • Christopher Conway

      Very well put sir!

    • You refuse to see it though.

      • euansmith

        Pardon?

        • Lewis Everitt

          I think he was trying to say that you haven’t quit and you have issues with GW customer treatment. Or he thinks you do. It’s hard to tell.

          • euansmith

            Thank you; yeah, that makes sense.

            Oddly, I have actually quit, at least as far as the thrust of this article goes. 😉

            I’ve given up on playing 40k, though I do still follow the fluff, buy models (mainly the old Fantasy stuff and some random 40k stuff to do conversion work) and come to BoLS to keep abreast of developments.

            However, I have given up on the 40k rules and the rising tide of Codices. Instead, I use my GW minis to play grim dark games with other sets of rules.

            I realise that many folk like GW’s approach to their stewardship of the game, but I have chosen to hop off the treadmill and play elsewhere.

            My Chaos Marines can be as tough, competent and deadly as I like them to be.

  • While a I agree with most of this as an ideal, there is a large number of supplements available for CSM players to pick from, I think you’re not looking at the cost of all those books together as opposed to one book that SM get. For example, the books you suggest to start with total $173… add Traitor’s Hate, Crimson Slaughter, Siege of Vraks, and IA:13 and you’re looking at $392 for just all the CSM books. Even more if you throw in Warzone:Fenris for updated Demons.

    A SM player can pick up their codex for $58 and have a shed load of rules and different chapter tactics right out of the gate.

    So a CSM player is supposed to spend over $400 in books to get a “decent” force, and 2 of those books(FW) may or may not be allowed at tournaments/your local FLGS. Granted the attitude toward FW is more inclusive these days but there’s still people that won’t play against it.

    I think the current CSM codex is WAY better than the Gav ‘dex, but it’s nowhere near where it needs to be. With updating all the supplements first it allows them redo the codex if they want, which I don’t see them doing since they didn’t bother to to do anything to Kharn. i.e. Eternal Warrior. Personally, if they dropped the points per model for a lot of the current CSM codex and maybe give CSM Stubborn, add a few more Deamon Weapons, move Hades ACs and Ectoplasma Cannons to Predators and LRs, I’d be pretty happy.

    But that points drop, that has to happen… or give CSM more USRs to reflect what they are supposed to be. Something to give a Space Marine pause, the dark mirror of their nobility and grace. It’s written about all the time, it’s just not in the 40k rules.

  • If I had to guess I’d say look at who’s been writing or “leading the writing team” from codex CSM 4th ed till now and the same with the Orks. We’re suffering from GW retconed things we liked written by people who no longer work there. Which I’d imagine is about IP control more than anything else. It sucks.
    I do think we are entitled to a better codex for our chosen army.
    Some of us only play one army and wouldn’t play at all if that army wasn’t a thing.

    • nurglitch

      Entitled, really?

      • Yes, these books cost enough. If I buy one shouldn’t I feel like I got something of value for my money, something of quality?

        • nurglitch

          I guess? I buy stuff because I feel the value exceeds the monetary cost, and because I want to support the production of more of the same. That lead me to buying the Black Legion book, and pre-ordering Traitor’s Hate, despite having access to the content prior to purchase. I don’t understand buyer’s remorse in this instance.

  • Lewis Everitt

    I knew the problem would be blamed on the players in this article before even reading it. I had a long hiatus between 2nd Ed 40k and 4th Ed so I never got to use the 3.5 dex.
    It’s not really so much to expect a codex that works in itself, has been thoroughly play-tested and made to be solid yet not overpowered AND fun. This is what the consumer wants.
    The CSM is simply a bad product, badly thought out and far from being fun to use. The players shouldn’t have to try so hard just to have a functional, fun and competitive(in the true sense) army.

    IMO the first Chaos Daemon codex was a perfect example of the balance between fun and usability without being OP(before the flamer and screamer rules update debacle). Losing Calvatore really hurt 40k, and the current Codexes, formations etc etc are just a total mess. Worse than Rogue trader was before the end.

  • benn grimm

    Can we not just have a week where you guys don’t stir up arguing over CSM? Just one week? Please?

    • Diagoras

      But these articles garner them so much delicious, delicious traffic.

      • benn grimm

        There must come a point of diminishing returns, where people just see the same old played out arguments again and again and again and just switch off. I know I’m not far from there myself.

        • Diagoras

          Oh, I reached that point a while back. I commented pleading with them to stop making the same Traitor’s Hate article over and over.

          But now they’ve realized the well’s run dry, so apparently they’ve resorted to name-calling.

          • Coltcabunny

            Nah, they can always show that Tau army again… Months of articles to make from that. Also copy and pasting PP’s insiders.

    • Skathrex

      But, but its the “Bell of LOST SOULS” get it…lost souls are CSM players…no? ok I show myself out…

      • benn grimm

        Lol )

    • Nyyppä

      I think we could all settle for a week of no blaming/shaming some parts of the community for something they have no influence on.

      • benn grimm

        That would be nice also.

    • Parthis

      Well said. But there are twelve revenue-generating links/Ads on this page alone. BoLS have absolutely no problem flame-baiting the community it purportedly serves in order to make pennies.

  • >entitlement

    …yeeeeeaaah, you can take this article and shove it where the Golden Throne doesn’t shine.

  • Largie

    SM books:
    Vanilla
    Blood Angels
    Dark Angels
    Space wolves
    Death watch
    Grey Knights
    Wulfen part 1
    Kauyon
    Shield of Baal
    Angels of death
    Champions of fenris
    Sentinels of terra
    Clan raukaan
    (Not including: assassins, inquisition, sisters, Skitarii, cult mech, imperial Knights)

    Chaos books:
    CSM
    CD
    KDK
    Black legion
    Crimson Slaughter
    Traitors hate
    Wulfen part 1

    Just for people’s info

    • Karru

      Clearly the Chaos has it better here. Obviously.

    • Christie Bryden

      lets remove CD and wulfen part 1 as those are demons. and thus gave nothing to CSM unless they want allies.

    • How many books do Sisters have… hmmm ?

      • Nyyppä

        If one isenough to have fun then is one not enough?

        • It’s great if you have it but not a de facto standard nor should it be.

          • Nyyppä

            To me it seems like GW wanted people to have the option to play with one source if they wanted but could have multiples too. If the standard is not the ability to do so they have messed up the design or they treat their customers differently based on the faction the customer has chosen which is turn is ethically questionable.

            What should or should not be the standard quality of a codex in this game is not something you or I can claim to know. In the name of fairness the standard power level of a faction should be roughly equal to other factions.

            You claim to be a competitive gamer. How about you start playing only CSM without allies and go win some of the bigger competitive events? If you have fun and get some 1st places in the current meta then it’s fine, we can all believe you in that CSM is fine and that the CSM players are just entitled. Before that it seems a lot like you are the one who feels entitled and they have a legitimate reason to complain.
            I have yet to lose against CSM and I play fluffy nids. To me that is a solid proof that CSM is really in need of an update and the solution to CSM problems is not “don’t play CSM”.

      • Karru

        One, but by your logic there is absolutely no issue. Sister players just have to ally themselves with Imperials and be the minor part of the army. They can just use multiple sources and adapt, just like Chaos!

        • There’s nothing wrong with using multiple sources to field a viable army.

          • Karru

            There isn’t, even if it means that you have to sacrifice strategy out of the game. I have nothing against it, but your logic basically state that Sisters have nothing to complain, since they can just use multiple sources to stay competitive even if they are nothing more than the HQ and 2 min Troops of the army.

  • Chad Underdonk

    You young renegades fresh from your conversion from the lapdog Imperium know nothing of the Long War. You cannot fathom the depths of hate and revilement we Veterans feel for the patchwork of sources that are all individually too weak to be worthy of tribute. We crave strength, and the cloying seduction of corruption that fully captures ones soul and creates a true adherent to the Ruinous Powers. We demand as our birthright the power to crush our enemies, to topple the rotten edifice, and to feed upon the terror of the weak as we extinguish their light from the universe.

    • Yer one of those teeth gnashing vets aren’t ya ??

      • Chad Underdonk

        I remember the days when Vortex and Stasis Grenades used to wander the field of battle. When Reaper Autocannons slaughtered our enemies refusing to Jam. When the Bloodthirsters lash killed whole squads attempting to do drive-bys. The time when overwatch left the battlefield littered with the bodies of those who dared emerge from cover. There was a time when Beastmen and Daemons tore apart our foes and each other at the behest of M’Kachan, N’Kari, Foulspawn, and Doombreed. Once our foes quaked at our names, and despaired at our arrival.

        But the war has drug on for too long. Too many of our number have fallen and been replaced by those who know nothing of the beauty of the color section, or a codex with enough heft to smite the unwary. Few now know the Darkness as those of us who have stalked these battlefields since the early days…and more is the pity for these mere cultists do little but whet the appetite of Khorne for more blood and have little ability to sate him.

        http://eternalhunt.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/codex_chaos_2nd_ed.jpg

    • Christopher Conway

      What a pleasure to read, very well put lord Underdonk !

  • Nyyppä

    Are we not entitled to have roughly as good codices as everyone else regardless of our chosen faction? It’s a game after all and what’s the point if you win or lose based on faction you choose to play with?

  • I would love the customization options from back in the hey day. I recognize that won’t ever happen though.

    What I’d be happy with instead is a codex that doesn’t get defiled because its power curve is so much drastically lower that it makes having a good game impossible unless your opponent purposely gimps his list… which lets be honest in our culture is asking for quite a bit.

  • RJSuperfreaky

    As a Dark Eldar player, I drink the tears of the CSM players with great relish. You think you know pain from a terrible codex? You know nothing.

    Which is the most appropriate DE response, as well…

    • Nyyppä

      Can we agree that both of those groups got less than they should have from the last iteration for their respective armies?

  • Nvision

    The issue isn’t with folks wanting a “top tier” codex. For most, it’s about being able to play a flavourful army of their choice, that they’ve chosen for the aesthetic, or playstyle, or background, and still have it be marginally competitive on the table. Trying to play Thousand Sons without the use of Daemons is like banging my head against a wall. I keep playing them, I love the army, but I haven’t won a game with them in several years. Other armies, other systems, I can have a good challenging game (even winning, occasionally!), but not so with CSM, unless I want to utilize the dozens of supplements that cater largely to one specific god…

    • kSons were never good though …

      • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

        they used to have two wounds and were excellent.

        • Nah.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            in the 1999 codex they had W2, couldn’t be affected by ranged weapons of below S5, always fired their bolters as if stationary, which was cool with the old rapid fire rules, and they cost 23 each, which was cheap.

          • Commissar Molotov

            I’m slowly realizing that BBF doesn’t have a clue what he’s talking about.

          • Karru

            The more I read his comments, I concluded that the only reason for all this was just to get a flame war going on to get as much ad rev as possible. This things get traffic fast. He knows absolutely nothing about the topic, since he refuses to answer to any question asked or argument given in coherent answers that has more than 1-3 words in them.

          • I have played World Eaters, Death Guard, Emperor’s Children, Chaos Undivided, Lost and the Damned. You don’t see me whining though.

          • Karru

            Nor do I see you giving good example lists that have a shot at beating even mid contender lists while keeping the theme of your armies alive.

          • Prouncer

            Don’t worry, your far from alone on that assessment

          • They were not competitive though.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            How come when you didn’t remember they ever had two wounds you now remember that the two wound version wasn’t competitive? You just make your worthless opinions up on the spot don’t you?

          • I played kSons using the old rules for L&tD. Tzneetch was at the bottom of the power curve versus the other cults.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            L&D was 4 years after 3rd ed Chaos dec where Tsons were super good. They were best objective holding troops in game at that point.

        • Andrew Thomas

          And could take Terminator Armour.

  • Jabberwokk

    I knew as soon as I read the title that the point was going to be that it was the player that needed fixing not the game. And you did not disappoint.

  • Matthew

    Translation: What do you have to complain about, CSM players? All you have to do is combine the CSM book with FW, CS, TH, CD, Warzone Feinrus, and you have a great army!

    What’s that? You want to just play with the CSM book? That’s the ‘old’ way of thinking, you need to let that go! Just because so many other armies can do it, doesn’t mean you should be able to too.

    After all, wanting to just use one book is simply being entitled!

    So stop complaining about your tu*d sandwich and just eat it. Don’t worry, we’ll all just say that’s mud on your teeth.

    • Andrew Thomas

      I just love how he conflates complaining about a bad codex with complaining about the prevalence of Formations, Decuria, and Allied shenanigans.

  • Mike Linke

    Competitive CSM lists tend to have very few, or zero, Chaos Space Marines!

    • Mike Linke

      The current CSM codex is better referred to as Codex: Cultists and Daemon Engines.

      The “space marine” contingent is unusable unless your opponent is nice enough to tie one hand behind her back.

    • Check out TH.

      • Andrew Thomas

        Raptor and Warp Talon units are not Chaos Space Marine units. Neither are Chosen, Possessed, Bikers, or Obliterators.

  • Reading the comments just proves my points … the vets just don’t get it nor is there any effort to learn or adapt.

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      no mate, you don’t get it. Chaos was established in a pattern that lasted for decades until 4th Ed. Black Library and Forgeworld continued to support the old pattern (CSM being mainly fragments of the Legions with some renegades) but from this point onwards GW’s codex writers alone changed the agenda and started putting out books that didn’t reflect the fluff of the past or the fluff which continues to be produced by their other two arms.

      Unsurprisingly players were not happy with these flavourless codexes with their emphasis on renegades (who have mysteriously lost all their 40k era kit). We continue to be unhappy with them and will be until GW gives us the product that we all want, which reflects the backstory and gives interesting ways to represent diverse forces.

    • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

      no mate, you don’t get it. Chaos was established in a pattern that lasted for decades until 4th Ed. Black Library and Forgeworld continued to support the old pattern (CSM being mainly fragments of the Legions with some renegades) but from this point onwards GW’s codex writers alone changed the agenda and started putting out books that didn’t reflect the fluff of the past or the fluff which continues to be produced by their other two arms.

      Unsurprisingly players were not happy with these flavourless codexes with their emphasis on renegades (who have mysteriously lost all their 40k era kit). We continue to be unhappy with them and will be until GW gives us the product that we all want, which reflects the backstory and gives interesting ways to represent diverse forces.

      If GW made Tau into a close combat army, or released a Sister’s codex without useable power armoured troops would you advise players to adapt? To use other codexes or allies? Would you berate them when they failed to do so or fondly remembered the past? Take your arrogant uninformed opinions elsewhere, no-one wants to hear your arrogant nonsense here.

      • Tau doesn’t need a close combat army and Sisters have viable power armored units.

        • Andrew Thomas

          I see you haven’t yet mastered the third Conditional tense.

        • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

          That went right over your head didn’t it….

          • Your point was pedantic… bad examples to make your point imo.

      • Andrew Thomas

        I have given them those options in my Homebrew. Need to test it some, though.

        • Andrew Thomas

          Just need to figure out other Legion Decurions/army benefits (like how to give IW Castellan Rhinos, for example). GSC gives me some ideas for NL and for AL.

    • Nyyppä

      Is it possible that maybe they do and you don’t? Can you make a playable non repetitive list from only CSM without allies and compete on even footing with the mono codex eldar? If you can please do show them how to do it. Otherwise you seem to be doing your irish step on very thin ice.

    • Karru

      But some have and guess what the response was from their opponents? Can you please pack your stuff and leave, I don’t want to face your KDK/Cabal BS again.

      • Tears are falling …

        • Karru

          You do realise that your message was just “in order to play CSM, you have to avoid CSM.” How is that a solution?

          • You guys complaining are very picky about what you define as a CSM.

          • Nyyppä

            To be honest, they are right. CSM and only codex CSM units are CSM.

          • Only tactical Marines are Space Marines ??

          • Nyyppä

            All marines get their faction special rules. You can compare devastators and havocs just as well. Other great comparisons are assault marines and raptors, oblits and centurions, captains and chaos lords, librarians and sorcerers and all the other units that have a pretty much same function in both armies.

          • Karru

            What is Space Marine in the SM book:

            All HQ units (Tellion not included),
            Tactical Marines,
            Crusaders,
            Command Squad,
            Honour Guard,
            Centurions,
            Vanguard Veterans,
            Sternguard Veterans,
            Terminators,
            Assault Marines,
            Bikes,
            Devastators,
            Techmarine Gunner

            What is Chaos Space Marine in the CSM:

            All HQ units (Daemon Prince not included),
            Chaos Space Marines,
            Chosen,
            Possessed,
            Chaos Terminators,
            Cult Marines,
            Bikes,
            Raptors,
            Warp Talons,
            Havocs

            This is what I define CSM and SM as. If my army is mostly made from those units, I count it as a Chaos Space Marines army or Space Marine army. Exception is if I field the “Armoured Company” option, like the Fist of the Gods and the Armoured Might Detachment.

            Also, they have to come from the same book to be counted as CSM or SM. I don’t count BA Tacticals as SM, they are BA. Same goes with CSM, if I take KDK Chaos Space Marines, they are KDK.

            It doesn’t matter if I use 1 source or 1000 sources, if my army doesn’t contain majority from one specific codex, ie the main book that is the CAD, I’m not playing the army. I am playing an Alliance, since I am no longer playing that army.

          • Karru

            Well, I define CSM as Chaos Space Marines, not Daemons or Cultist. Those guys are completely different thing for me. What is your definition?

          • I know what is my definition for an idiot.

          • Karru

            Once again, you decide to insult instead answer the damn question, Thus it makes you the idiot.

      • How is that any different than Eldar d spam or Tau Cadre Hunter ?

        • Karru

          Those Eldar and Tau players can actually play something different and still remain as a top contender? They are not contained 3-5 units due to overpricing, lack of any meaningful rules and problems regarding assault armies in 7th edition.

          I play the following armies, Eldar, Imperial Guard, Space Marines and Orks. I used to play CSM and later KDK, but stopped and put them away to wait for a book(s) that actually makes them what they are supposed to be in the fluff.

          I’m going to tell you something about my experiences when I played all the armies I have and my the experience of my opponents.

          When I play my Eldar, I use a lot of Guardians and Platforms. I have used my Wraithknight once and it wasn’t as devastating as it could’ve. I also run a single unit of Dire Avengers in a Wave Serpent and a Farseer on foot with the Guardians. Also Rangers, at least 10 of them each game since I love the model so much. This is the Core of my army. I have yet to use a single Jetbike in my army (unless you count Vypers) and D-spam. My only D-weapon is the Scythe that the Wraithguard have and there is only 5 of them.

          My win rate is around 80% with them. My opponents have yet to complain once against me. Why do I enjoy my Eldar army? Because it has interesting rules to make a strategy around. Farseers and their Psychic Powers that buff my units, Warlocks that can buff my units or weaken enemy. I have Battle Focus to manoeuvre around the enemy or push to create pressure around an objective.

          My IG is still relatively new, I started them around year and a half ago. Mostly Infantry, the army has 2 Leman Russes (Punisher and Eradicator), 1 Chimera and 3 Armoured Sentinels as the Core vehicles. I can add 1 Chimera for my Company Command Squad if I want and I also have Banewolf and a Valkyrie to put in if I want. Infantry Platoons make the heart of my army. I also run a Knight with them, usually since I have a rule that I can only play with Painted Models and Guard armies take a while to paint.

          Win rate is 95%, but this isn’t exactly the best way to look at them since I started them around the time when my local club stopped and we could play maybe once every month. Again, I enjoy the heck out of this army and I have received 0 complaints about fielding it. It has fun mechanics around the Order system and sheer number of men I have. Also tricks you can do with fortifications and Orders is fun and interesting.

          Orks have only seen combat 5 times and I have won 3 of those games, so I won’t be getting into too much detail since I feel that isn’t enough to have the “full experience” with an army. With them I run Mechanised. Basic idea is to rush my opponents side of the board with a lot of Trukks and Biker Boys and just swarm. Fun army to play with.

          No complaints from anyone. I have enjoyed them thus far, even in defeat. Mostly since I will always get to combat and stomp something. With everything they have from special rules like the WAAAAGH!!! and Mob Rule as well as the Open-topped Trukks, these guys are fun to play as an assault army.

          Then my big boys. The Space Marines. Easily over 200 games in the bag and still going strong. Started in 5th and never once stopped with them. They are my biggest army and still continue to expand. My win-rate is around 70% in 5th, 75% in 6th and 85% in 7th.

          I only field a single unit of Tactical Squad that has Grav, in form of the Grav Gun and Combi-Grav. Beyond that it’s the basic stuff, two 10-man Tac. Squads make the core of my army, along side Sniper Scouts. Then I can go wild, I have basically everything from the book to play with and not once have I had a game that was boring or even identical list wise than the last game was.

          I have yet to play with the AoD book since I play Ultramarines, but I’m planning to get around to that at some point.

          Guess what the reaction was to this army? Zero. Complaints. We have a gentleman code regarding things that are “new” in 6th/7th edition, like the Fliers and Super Heavies. We ask our opponents if they are okay with them or if they’d prefer not to face them, since they can ruin a game in certain situations. It is also a left over rule from the club days since we had so many players that didn’t have 30k points worth of models as well as 2-4 armies and couldn’t answer to every singe situation.

          My Chaos army and those of my friends all suffer from the same problem. They lack any identifying special rule that gives them something to form a plan around. They have nothing that gives them a viable strategy that they can actually use that doesn’t involve divine intervention to work correctly. I get literally no enjoyment out of playing my CSM army. Since I play so many other armies I realise just how expensive they are and see how bad their rules are, there is no point in playing them any more. People, like you, again and again try to say that all you have to do is to “adapt”. When it comes to CSM, this means to avoid playing them. You want to avoid the main book like a plague and switch to KDK and when playing it use only Daemons.

          This is what you are saying. “Veterans should just stop complaining and stop playing Chaos Space Marine armies and switch over to Khorne Daemons or just Daemons. They are much better in every way and if you refuse to play Daemons instead of Chaos Space Marines, then you are the problem and you have no right to complain.”

        • Nyyppä

          Eldar players get to play eldar and tau players get to play tau. CSM players do not get to play CSM. That’s a big difference in my opinion.

          • A lot of people don’t want to play against Tau or a Eldar. Plus I see Tau and Eldar players using multi source as well to design their armies.

          • Nyyppä

            A codex too good to WAAC is a whole different thing than a codex being to bad to win WAAC or not. They still can play their factions if they want to and have option to use multiple sources. They have options, possibilities, chances. Things that those CSM players do not have.

            What you suggested to CSM players was that they should stop playing CSM and start playing something else. That is not a solution that makes CSM viable.

          • I said use multiple sources. I’m done with you.

          • Nyyppä

            So, how do you think those who play CSM get more out of CSM by not playing CSM? That is the whole point of your article so it seems that you are the right person to ask.

          • Andrew Thomas

            2 sources that use the same models, at the same price points, with only a minor tax and a virtually useless additional army-wide special rule hardly qualifies as a multi-source army.

  • Brett Thompson

    Many new Chaos players don’t ever remember playing with that codex. I think its important to note that the main Chaos Marines codex is the oldest printed army book that’s still legal in 40K and the only army in worse shape at the moment is Sisters of Battle (who have only had metal models and two White Dwarf codexes for a decade). The current codex came out at the beginning of LAST edition, and was careful even by those past standards. It needs an update, and Forgeworld’s Horus Heresy has opened our eyes to what Chaos Marines can be. I don’t see how this has anything to do with entitlement.

    • If you expect someone to give you what you want that’s entitlement. The hobby is a luxury not a welfare system.

      • Nyyppä

        How good is a game, in your personal opinion, in which you personally lose almost every game and almost every loss you suffer is because you played the army you chose?

        Are players using paying a company for a service entitled to equal (which does not mean “the same”) treatment? If you buy a hamburger and get just the ketchup on a paper are you entitled if you feel you’ve been conned?

        • I played CSM back in 6th and start of 7th… I didn’t lose every game. The army was okay.

          • Nyyppä

            Back when drakes were an actual threat. Yes. Back then they were ok in power if you count just those few units. You actually had to think about how to play against them. Back then also monsters were viable (great for us nid players). Now they are not and in both cases CSM lacks all the fluffy options.

            It does not really matter what the situation was 2 or 10 years ago. Only the present matters when you look at how armies work in relation to each other in the game.

          • My armies had zero drakes.

          • Nyyppä

            Then I’m afraid you need better opponents. I know no people who have lost to CSM after 7th broke.

          • That comment carries no weight. In fact CSM recently won the BAO.

          • Nyyppä

            In the 2016 BAO rankings CSM was on place 55. The best list with CSM was on place 8 and had likely only the cabal. Just saying…

          • Karru

            Can we have the list that was used? I’m going to take a wild guess that it includes mostly Daemons and Cultists with only Cabal being the “CSM” in the army.

  • Ian Bush

    There’s an entire game based around that 3.5 dex, it’s called 30K. Everyone I know who plays 30K (myself included), is SUPER happy with the meta and game, while we all hate what 40K has become. With Calth and the upcoming prospero books, it’s actually cheaper to build than a 40K army too. Come join us in Heresy and have super flavorful, unique armies. This applies doubly to the traitor legions. Every legion is viable and balanced with a million ways to build a highly competitive list.

    • Josh

      I want to do this more than I can accurately describe. Sadly though, my legion hasn’t been given any rules to play. My Thousand Sons will always be my first love, but they are not available in 30k and are worthless in 40k.

    • Nyyppä

      It is true that 30k is far superior to 40k. It actually makes even eldar balanced with the rest.

    • ^^ This

  • Thomas Bolt

    I keep seeing all this hate online for CSM which i don’t get. I’ve been a Chaos marine player for 2 codices now and while yeah we don’t get as much love as other armies (excluding sisters) that’s because we are one of the most customisable armies out there. no other army has the amount of options that almost every unit gets. And who else can put a H.Q on a juggernaut then give him a daemon axe for a potential 13, strength 6 ap2 attacks on the charge. You guys obviously just ain’t good enough with Chaos space marines. Use those combos and stop complaining about your people costing a few more points. Plus traitors hate gave some really nice formations and the detachment is pretty sweet. Being able to give your suuped up nurgle lord 2 free gifts a turn is insane. Or typhus……Or abaddon. Embrace the chaos, i have to fight Tau, Eldar and Ultramarines on a regular basis and I still win half my games, but i have fun in every single one. Its just a game =P

    • Karru

      The problem is that CSM units are the only army in the game that has to buy their special rules. That Juggernaut Lord of yours is nice on the paper but on the battlefield? Not so much. He has a 3+ Save and a 4+ Invulnerable save at best and cost a ton. Compare that to a Chapter Master that has a Str 10 AP 2 Large Blast that can be targeted anywhere on the battlefield, he also has 1 more wound, access to 2+ Save and 3+ Invulnerable. He also can get a 3+ FNP with the Iron Hand Detachment from AoD book. Those “Possible” 13 attacks of your become quite useless against a guy that costs less than yours and can tank basically all of those like it was nothing.

      People seem to ignore a critical thing about CSM. The more competitive you “have to” get, tournaments for example, the less CSM units you want to take. KDK book is used for Khorne Daemons and the Bloodtithe table so they get the buffs from it. CSM book is used only for the Cabal and Cultists when you get into these levels. When the unit that has the name of your book is the most useless unit and the one you HAVE to avoid in higher tiers, you don’t think there might be a problem?

      • You can actually design a JuggerLord with 2+/3++ and he is a whole heck of a lot more smashy as F than Chapter Master.

        • Karru

          And how would you do that with the CSM codex? Also what would be the price of said JuggerLord?

        • Nyyppä

          Care to tell us how that is done and how much it costs vs. the Smashf*cker?

          • SF clocks in around 250 points… super Juggy is about the same cost as well. You can get 2+ from CS.

          • Nyyppä

            But not eternal warrior or 2+ FNP. You see, not comparable in power.

          • He can have 4+ FNP and EW plus more Killy. Just because he’s not exactly the same doesn’t make the JuggerLord garbage.

          • Nyyppä

            How? What are the relics/items that do this?

          • Karru

            So I did the calculations on this. Not sure if 100% accurate since I don’t know if they changed the prices of the CS relics with the “update”.

            The CS JuggerLord you described has 2+ Armour Save and 4+ Invulnerable. He has Juggernaut, Mark of Khorne, Axe of Blind Fury, Daemonheart and Sigil of Corruption. He costs 200pts. He is WS 5, Str 6 in Melee, Toughness 5, 4 Wounds, Initiative 5 and 4 Attacks base. He also has It Will Not Die.

            For 245pts, I get a Chapter Master that has a 5+ FNP that can be boosted to 3+. He has a Bike, Power Fist, Shield Eternal and Artificer Armour. He now has a 2+ Armour Save and +3 Invulnerable Save and the possibility of 3+ FNP, which is likely due to Command Squad being super cheap. He has WS 6, Str 8 in Melee, Toughness 5, 4 Wounds, Initiative 1 in Melee and 4 Attacks base. He also has a Str 10 AP 1 Barrage, One Use Only weapon. He is also Eternal Warrior and has It Will Not Die.

            So for the insane investment of 45pts more I have a guy that not only has better Invulnerable save, but is also immune to Instant Death, has the possibility of 3+ FNP and better Strength. Only sacrifice is less attacks, but then the Chaos Lord can roll a 1 and hit himself.

            JuggerLord isn’t exactly garbage, but he does suffer from this thing called being Assault Unit in 7th edition. He unfortunately belongs to the group of units that lack the means to get to the opponents side of the board alive, since he can just be shot of the table with Grav or any AP2 or AP3 weapon. Other option is to take a large unit of Flesh Hounds with him, which is the most common tactic, but then you should just go with full KDK JuggerLord that is much better in terms of investment, thanks to better upgrades and the Bloodtithe Table.

    • ^^ This

      • Nyyppä

        That seems to highlight the problem in CSM as far as I know. Lacking durability, lacking killing power, high cost.

  • Raven Jax

    I have never played Chaos, but I picked up the Codex for the first time last week and was reading it over. Here are three things that struck me right off the bat, and things GW should fix, coming from an impartial source who has no previous opinions on the Codex nor has ever read any previous Chaos Codexs.

    1) There are no “Chapter Tactics,” or ways to differentiate that you’re playing different Marine legions or chapters. Also no real rules to differentiate between original traitors from the Heresy or chapters that have recently turned.

    2) The book references using psychic powers in your shooting phase, indicating to me that it has not been updated for some time.

    3) There’s a lack of weapon options, including no storm shields or non-plasma weapons. There’s no guns or shields that allow you to play more defensive-minded. I understand Chaos being aggressive, but they’re not all blood-hungry like Khorne. There should be some more slightly defensive upgrades to reflect things like Tzeentch’s patience and scheming.

    • Zingbaby

      It IS one of the older codex though – and if the rumors be true, we will not get updated codex of existing armies until after 8th edition 40k is released.

    • You can field cult units and use their banners.

      • Nyyppä

        Pardon my ignorance but how exactly do those make up the difference? What do they do? How much do they cost?

        • Some of the icons are really good like FNP and the one for Khorne too. The points are listed in the codex of all places.

          • Nyyppä

            So, what you are saying is that what marines get for free the already a lot more expensive CSM can pay a lot to get. Marks are, what, 2-4 p per model and the FNP icon is likely around 30-40 p. That’s 50 to 80 points on top of the already 25p more expensive 10 man squad which at that point can be swept in melee.

            If I was a CSM player I would not see those are equal things or even close. Do you?

          • SM don’t get the same benefits as derived from the Chaos icons for free.

          • Nyyppä

            IoV is fearless which is worse than ATSKNF and stops existing if and when the icon bearer is killed. IoV is something like 25p. There is a fear icon which is literally the most useless rule in the game. There is a icon for Tzeentch that gives soul blaze or something to that nature. There is a Khorne icon with furious charge and I think rerolls to charge. Then there is the Slaanesh icon that gives FNP for 30 or 40 points.

            So, one icon that is worse than what SM get by default. One that gives what IH get just for existing. 2 icons with the worst and second worst USR. One icon that is the basic BA rules plus a situational rarely beneficial added gimicry.

            Well, you are right. SM don’t get everything these icons give for free, just 3 out 5 and the 2 are things no one wants to have. On top of the cost of the icon it self CSM also have to pay for marks so you can add 10 to what ever to the icons cost for things that SM get for free or do not care about.

            In your opinion, do you feel that CSM is treated fairly?

  • Commissar Molotov

    You missed the point. Chaos players don’t want Eldar with spikes. They just want to be able to represent the traitor legions on the tabletop. I had a playable Death Guard army in 3rd edition, and I really want to have one again.

    • Xodis

      Thats possibly the hardest concept for non CSM players to understand it seems. Im perfectly OK with playing a sub-Par codex as long as its fluffy. Sure, thats my personal preference and should not be taking as the community stance…but the players who complain about about CSM usually don’t mention being the best at all, we just want units to be worth taking.

      • Zingbaby

        Except if you want to play legions you need to play 30K …10,000 years later a “fluffy” chaos army is hardly a reflection of a “Death Guard legion”.

        • Xodis

          I dont want to play Legions though, I want to play CSM, and CSM in novels have amazingly wonderful strategies, equipment, and a single CSM soldier is something to fear….not so much in game.
          A Deathguard army does exist in 40K, just like Slaanesh Warbands exist, etc…
          So again there is no reason that a fluffy army cant exist, what about Nightlords, Iron Warriors, etc… even shown on the table besides a paint job? Do you really think the fluff doesn’t support an Iron Warriors warband that are expert tacticians and amazing siege breakers or fortification assaults?

          • Zingbaby

            Except all of the armies you listed can be represented quite easily with supplements that you are choosing not to use.

          • Xodis

            Obviously you are not reading what I actually type and have taken a stance of “he only uses a single codex”, which is not true. Where are the Iron Legions in 40K?

          • Zingbaby

            Well the “legions” have been in the warp for 10,000 years… so that’s where, they are hardly like the “legions” in 30K.

            I assume you mean Iron Warriors — well go look at Traitors Hate, you can build a list pretty much exactly like a 3.5CSM Iron Warriors list with it.

          • Xodis

            So the answer is “they released the rules for a 2 edition old codex right before the release of a new edition”. Fair enough I guess, except that formation doesn’t really represent Iron Warriors accurately IMO. Because the main problems are the vehicles and units themselves. CSM Iron Warriors are exactly like CSM World Eaters/Black Legion/etc.. etc… Taking a couple extra heavy options is the cheap route and doesn’t encompass the fluff at all.

            Thank you on the typo, it’s been edited now.

          • Zingbaby

            Well ok – but “taking a couple extra heavy options” is literally EXACTLY what Iron Warriors were in the 3.5 codex.

          • Xodis

            Yes, but you are assuming THAT is the standard I hold CSM to, when I have repeatedly mentioned the fluff and not a previous codex which I already explained I never played.

          • Zingbaby

            Eh ok well I guess you’ll never be happy then.

            I mean you could use Traitors Hate and bulk up on tank formations and even add FW chaos for lots of nasty nasty artillery and bigger tanks… but I realize those are outside of the single-codex so for some reason taboo.

          • Xodis

            No I am perfectly happy as Eldar follows the fluff rather closely, as does my new Deathwatch, and my Orks (even if they are seriously lacking on the power creep scale).

            I might pick up Traitors hate (to go along with BL, KDK, and CS), but adding a bandaid to a broken bone does not fix the real problem.

            What CSM need are better ways to get some of those awesome Universal Special Rules to the foot soldiers, so they can perform some type of action other than dieing.

          • Nyyppä

            Were not all legions represented like that then, just like almost everi other sub faction in the game? Is the present style for creating sub factions not done by specific extra rules and gear?

          • Zingbaby

            They were not all like that at all. Right now with TH you can build a more Night Lords ‘flavored’ army than you could with the fabled 3.5 CSM book – back when NL only got an extra Fast slot and stealth — but because the book said they were “Night Lords”, and now you have to make that distinction for yourself (the horror!!) somehow it’s not enough.

          • Nyyppä

            You can build a vaguely NL(ish) raptor heavy generic CSM warband with TH. That is true. What you can not do is build a NL warband.

            Back in the day that extra fast slot was a big deal. Now, thanks to unbound and formations the deciding factor is the particular combination of extra rules. UM for example are tactically flexible so they reroll something all the time and tend to have pseudo preferred enemy on everything else. I can not find anything like that from the TH leaks (don’t have the book and will not get it).

            The big question here is that if pretty much everyone else is getting their fluffy special rules for free and crom GW why do the CSM player have to make the distinction for themselves? I’d give them the fluffy viable codex right now if it was up to me.

          • Painjunky

            With traitors hate you can build a really mediocre, half assed night lords force that will get wiped off the table as the formation is pathetic.

          • And you can spam Oblits .

          • Andrew Thomas

            And your ICs had access to servo-arms, so on an average roll, your DP straight up murdered any vehicle that wasn’t a Monolith.

          • Nyyppä

            And you can spam gravturions.

            Did I miss your point?

          • Chad Underdonk

            My whole Veteran Nightlord army used to infiltrate onto the table!

        • Nyyppä

          If it looks like one and acts like one, is it or is it not one?

          • Andrew Thomas

            Assuming it acts like one, which, absent Chapter Tactics, isn’t possible, sure.

          • Nyyppä

            My thoughts exactly.

      • Well the codex alone is subpar due to units being overcosted but you can still play armies that have a valid CSM theme.

  • Parthis

    Massively missed the point of the complaints. I *don’t* play CSM. But there was a time where CSM could be played meaningfully. Had good rules, made sense. So in a slow-burn hobby where you spend years and a lot of money building and collecting a force, it’s cheap to see it invalidated.

    CSM haven’t changed to make the game better. They’ve changed to open the model pool to sell models.

    The author needs to understand that complaints are valid, and just saying “spend more money on these other things” isn’t a fair or reasoned response.

    • So it comes down to being cheap then.

      • Parthis

        I get that you’re trying very hard to troll now, and it’s cute, but no.

        Not everyone shares your financial situation.

        • Xodis

          It’s not even that. I consider myself lucky enough to be able to support my hobby addiction, but if I wanted to play a Deamon army, I would buy a Deamon army. I shouldn’t HAVE to buy a Deamon army just to play with some CSM.

          • Prouncer

            Exactly. Most of the people I know have plenty of money to spend on whatever hobby stuff they want. Its a logical fallacy to assume every single person who wants to play a pure CSM army just can’t afford to do anything else.

  • Randy Randalman

    First of all, Tau isn’t even tier 1. They appear nowhere near the top of tournaments right now.

    Second, Eldar isn’t 70% of the field like CSM’s were back then. Space Marines of all flavors are currently about 54% of the field, which makes the Eldar statement impossible. Let’s not get into how unhealthy that CSM codex was for the game back then, because it WAS 70% of the field (which is terrible for everyone else).

    I will concede that Eldar is the best, single-book army, but it was FW’s inability to write rules and the Doom of Mymeara that pushed them over the top. Even then, they are losing to Space Marines who can get 50 bikers or Wolves anywhere on the table and into combat faster than Warp Spiders can jump around.

    On topic: you are absolutely right about one thing: Chaos is extremely powerful when they combo their sources. They can do everything as well as Marines right now, with a better Knight and even steal opposing threats with a Cabal.

    • Nyyppä

      I thought we were talking about CSM, not chaos in general.

  • Jeremy Larson

    There are really only 2 things I think the CSM book realy NEEDS to have: access to artificer armor and storm shields. This fixes the complaint that Chaos characters (lords in particular) are so squishy, and Chaos assault terminators provide some survivable, hard-hitting close combat power that the army is curiously lacking.

  • Sure

    I’ll accept the patch offered by Traitor’s Hate. The Black Crusade detachment allows for you to make a custom force. The chaos warband gives to whole formation ObSec and the other formations grant the extra punch. My Iron Warriors ride again in a battleforged list that has 5 Heavies in 1750 points.

    • Nyyppä

      Other than obsec, what do you CSM players get from it that is not outmatched by every codex starting from the necrons? How is that core obsec equal to double demi company with the same benefit but different bonuses?

      • Sure

        Nothing to shout about. Improved chaos gifts, buffs provided by special rules for some formations. I’m just saying that the “patch” offered by Traitor’s hate at least moves in the right direction. I’ll play tournaments, but not expect to win big. Take a road trip with good friends, get 5 games in a weekend, roll the dice, talk smack at the tables, enjoy silliness Saturday night – just have a great weekend out. If I can pull an upset in 1/5 games it’s a hoot.

        • Nyyppä

          Good for you. I doubt that many others are contempt with those results if and when they are linked only to their faction’s lack of power.

    • ^^ This

  • Aaron

    the problem is that the core book is ridiculously overcosted in an era where eldar and tau can wipe units in a turn, not to mention grav

  • Drew_Da_Destroya

    This is easily the most trolltastic article I’ve seen on BoLS. Don’t like the currently-terrible, bottom of the pile, well-nigh unplayable codex? Well you must be some entitled old git who needs to get with the program and buy these other three books (which in no way fix the underlying problems with the basic vanilla codex being terrible).

    Sure, man, whatever.

  • StarkRaver

    I’ll give an example of the issue here and people can tell me if I’m wrong. I love night lords. If I play 30k I get unique rites or war and war gear that, for example, world eaters don’t get. Their whole thing is darkness and terror. Everything causes fear in a setting where the rule actually means something. Night fighting can be imposed on a 2+ but they have night vision and they get rules to represent fighting dirty. If I play 40k I can…..paint my models blue. If they can do it for legions and loyalists in one book then don’t bother telling me it can’t be done for 40k chaos marines and that’s what players want. The ability to play thousand sons or word bearers and have it mean something beyond what colour they’re painted

    • Zingbaby

      Go read Traitors Hate and come back to us if Night Lords is your thing.

      • StarkRaver

        I’m not sure what you’re getting at…is this referencing the raptor talon?

        • Raptor Talon is legit.

          • Painjunky

            Raptor talon is garbage.
            SM formations like skyhammer sh-t all over raptor fail.

          • They can both assault out of deep strike. I played a couple games using RT and they performed well enough.

          • Nyyppä

            What are you comparing them to? BA assault terminators and the golden boys would be a reasonable comparison. It’s hard to see raptors as valid.

          • StarkRaver

            I like using jump troops and all of my lists include at least one unit. It still doesn’t change the fact that in no way does it represent night lords beyond spamming a single unit. Would you take an entire army of plague marines and say that adequately represents death guard?

          • You’ve got Raptors and Warp Talons so no need to spam one unit. SM only have two JP units as well.

          • StarkRaver

            Wasn’t really my point though. I was comparing the way legion and loyalist lists provide differentiation through rules and war gear. You can take tac marines with different chapters and have them play differently to each other. Same with legions. Chaos though don’t have this differentiation, even though it would be simple to do and for no discernable reason.

          • Karru

            Both of them suffer from the lack of knowledge when it comes to lore. To them Night Lords = Raptors. To them the “Night Lords” list that included a Knight, a Bunker and a Daemon Prince had everything correct since it had Raptors in it.

            I do know what you mean. Raptors were originally the “Night Lord” thing back in 3.5, but it wasn’t what defined Night Lords. They had Stealth before it was cool. They also had Night Vision. Night Lords are meant to be lightning fast raiders that cause terror and havoc once they reach the enemy lines. This means that all the other units would have this effect, not just Raptors or Warp Talons. It doesn’t matter if I field the Raptor Talon with Marines painted Red or Pink, they are still the same as if I fielded them as Night Lords.

      • Nyyppä

        Was there something in the book that makes NL troops out of chaos warband marines?

  • Prouncer

    Sad to see another BOLS writter who has just completely lost the plot when it comes to 40k.
    Its been very obvious that chaos players have wanted to have a story driven legion codex that was at least semi-competitive and not the current dribble that is warbands.
    Like many others, my gaming circle has stopped even attempting competitive play, which just isn’t possible under the current rules let alone codex balance, and play at home with very heavy house rules.
    We have already written Legion rules that very closely match the old 3.5 version and re-pointed all weapon options within the current codex to make much more sense. As a Chosen that costs over 50 points to have lightning claws and a mark was complete garbage codex design

    • Play 30k.

      • Prouncer

        My option was cheaper and easier, and I am not interested in solving the current codex issues by throwing more money at them.

        • The game is a hobby which is a luxury.

          • Prouncer

            Obvious troll is obvious.
            I have the luxury of being able to purchase whatever models of my choosing, just as I have the luxury of changing whatever rules necessary to balancing the game. And I didn’t even need to buy extra books to do it.

            You can troll anyone on the forums you choose to, and you troll many, but that doesn’t make any of your points valid ones.

          • Nyyppä

            In western countries? I do not agree. In the slums of the 3rd world countries, sure.

  • Austin Glover

    The problem isn’t that chaos players feel entitled to a amazing book or that we wont use separate books just because they don’t like to. The problem is that if you want to be able to do anything decent you have to do that. point by point in the standard csm dex you are paying more for units that are inferior to the sm equivalent for example a standard csm unit costs 75 points (plus marks which would cost between 10-15 points and 5 more fore votlw ) while a sm unit (with veteran sarge) costs 80 points and has atsknf and chapter tactics.

    • A standard CSM unit clocks in comparably and has much more options than a tactical squad. ATSKNF is strictly Imperial and has no place in the codex.

      • Austin Glover

        even without atsknf they still have chapter tactics for free while csm has to pay for marks

      • Austin Glover

        that’s not even mentioning a techmarine is 65 points compared to 110 for a warpsmith and how its 90 points for a chaplain while its 105 for a dark apostle

        • There will always be differences and I don’t equivalent units should necessarily be costed exactly the same. Sure there are some overcosted units in the CSM codex but then again it’s the oldest for the current version of the game. This just goes back to the desire for a single codex that gives you everything you want.

      • Nyyppä

        Actually that comparable CSM squad is 135p (squad plus icon of vengeance plus the rhino) vs 70p (squad plus free rules plus a free razorback).

  • Fortnight

    There is a massive difference between say, Iron Warriors and Emperor’s Children. A far bigger difference than that between Blood Angels and Ultramarines. Entitlement isn’t the problem. The problem is that all background written about Chaos Space Marines stresses the great differences between the different kinds of Chaos Marines. From their tactics to their basic squads. If such great gaps are stressed than why is it entitlement to expect the rules to reflect the background?

    Think about it, which other codex is made up of factions that have been in open, hatred-filled warfare with each other for the last 10k years? The Chaos codex is the only one. There are hated enemies within the codex, not friendly rivals or even distrusted allies. Full on “Come the Apocalypse” level hatred.

    And wtf is with people who don’t get CSM, lumping anything that says Chaos in the title into it. KDK =/= CSM PERIOD. C:D =/= CSM PERIOD. That’s like saying Sisters players should be happy because Space Marines just got a supplement.

  • Painjunky

    All you entitled CSM players should be on your knees like black blow fly, cupping the balls of GW for giving you the weakest, laziest, overpriced, underpowered piece of flaming garbage army in the game.

  • Ronald A Price

    WOW. Entitled… disgruntled… Anything else??? “. Ive built and sold 2 nightlord Armies, Iron Warriors, Khorne, Tzeentch, and 2 Slannesh. and maybe a few more I cant remember. I have built and played every 40k army that was to made including ones from Citadel Journal. So that’s my resume on 40k.

    The problem Chaos fans have are several facts. And I’ll go down the list.
    1) Oldest “PRINTED” 6th-7th edition codex to date.

    2) Some how they lost the ability to summon daemons up until Khorne Daemoncin came out. (PSST, Not everyone that plays chaos likes Khorne)

    3) Per 40k Fluff. Chaos have always invaded planets from space. But no Drop pod/ troop carrier flier as of yet.

    4) Chaos Marines are veterans of a thousand wars. They get nothing FREE like marines get.
    a)we shall know no fear
    b) Chapter Tactics

    3)All Marks of Chaos cost points.
    4) Veterans of the long war costs points

    Up until the recent “Bandaid” chaos supplement and the RE-RELEASE of the Black Legion Codex and Blood Slaughter Codex Chaos did not have ANY formations.

    And the idea of having to carry around 3-4 codexs to a game to play one army is a bit redic’. Oh wait I’m sorry I can just buy them online and down load onto a cell phone or PAD. Sorry I’m a bit old fashion and like turning pages. And just in case I smell GW about to drop my favorite army off the fun list. I can trade or resell or auction off my codexs and get something back for it.

    And lets get a little more snippy. Marines, Eldar, and even Orks, Have the ability to build armies specific to their individual chapters, clans, and Craft Worlds.

    Chaos has nothing specific for the Nightlords, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, or Word Bearers. They USED to…
    But Marines get stuff for Fists , Iron Hands, Black Templers, etc etc.
    Marines get a formation that gives them FREE TRANSPORTS.
    This allows a marine player to bring a 1850 point army to a 1500 point tourney. WOW!!!

    BUT, And this is a Big one. Something I have noticed with the recent releases of Codexs. The Blood Angels supplement, The Black Legion, the Blood Slaughterers, And Maybe the Gene Stealer Cult. Instead of the Newer codexs being more powerful then the previous. Seems GW is trying to keep them on the level with the past one. But the Marines and Eldar still have the most powerful books to date so far. And only need 1-2 books (or a cell phone/pad) Not 3-4 books and a cell/pad to boot.

    Oh I forgot, Blood Angels now have 3 books to carry,A Codex, Shield of Baal, and Angels Blade. I guess Blood Angel players get to join the ranks of Chaos Players too. Oh Yeah, I played Blood Angels since 2nd edition when I picked up an ORIGINAL Angels of Death Codex and read about Mephiston. I was hooked.

  • Andrew Thomas

    Better cop-out answer: find a homebrew CSM Codex you like and petition to have it replace the 6th ed dex in your competitive circuit. Then, you aren’t stuck waiting for what may just be more table scraps, but get to play at a level that you’ve had some input in setting, for once.

  • Ronald A Price

    WOW. Entitled… disgruntled… Anything else??? On Ebay I am “Thenightlord”, and on Bartertowntown, Just “Nightlord”. Ive built and sold 2 nightlord Armies, Iron Warriors, Khorne, Tzeentch, and 2 Slannesh. and maybe a few more I cant remember. I have built and played every 40k army that was to made including ones from Citadel Journal. So that’s my resume on 40k.

    The problem Chaos fans have are several facts. And I’ll go down the list.
    1) Oldest “PRINTED” 6th-7th edition codex to date.

    2) Some how they lost the ability to summon daemons up until Khorne Daemoncin came out. (PSST, Not everyone that plays chaos likes Khorne)

    3) Per 40k Fluff. Chaos have always invaded planets from space. But no Drop pod/ troop carrier flier as of yet.

    4) Chaos Marines are veterans of a thousand wars. They get nothing FREE like marines get.
    a)we shall know no fear
    b) Chapter Tactics

    3)All Marks of Chaos cost points.
    4) Veterans of the long war costs points

    Up until the recent “Bandaid” chaos supplement and the RE-RELEASE of the Black Legion Codex and Blood Slaughter Codex Chaos did not have ANY formations.

    And the idea of having to carry around 3-4 codexs to a game to play one army is a bit redic’. Oh wait I’m sorry I can just buy them online and down load onto a cell phone or PAD. Sorry I’m a bit old fashion and like turning pages. And just in case I smell GW about to drop my favorite army off the fun list. I can resell or auction off my codexs and get something back for it.

    And lets get a little more snippy. Marines, Eldar, and even Orks, Have the ability to build armies specific to their individual chapters, clans, and Craft Worlds.

    Chaos has nothing specific for the Nightlords, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, or Word Bearers. They USED to…
    But Marines get stuff for Fists , Iron Hands, Black Templers, etc etc.
    Marines get a formation that gives them FREE TRANSPORTS.
    This allows a marine player to bring a 1850 point army to a 1500 point tourney. WOW!!!

    BUT, And this is a Big one. Something I have noticed with the recent releases of Codexs. The Blood Angels supplement, The Black Legion, the Blood Slaughterers, And Maybe the Gene Stealer Cult. Instead of the Newer codexs being more powerful then the previous. Seems GW is trying to keep them on the level with the past one. But the Marines and Eldar still have the most powerful books to date so far. And only need 1-2 books (or a cell phone/pad) Not 3-4 books and a cell/pad to boot.

    Oh I forgot, Blood Angels now have 3 books to carry,A Codex, Shield of Baal, and Angels Blade. I guess Blood Angel players get to join the ranks of Chaos Players too. Oh Yeah, I played Blood Angels since 2nd edition when I picked up an ORIGINAL Angels of Death Codex and read about Mephiston. I was hooked.

    • Nyyppä

      I’d like to point out 2 things. CSM had 3 helbrute formations available befor CS and BL rereleases. BA is now right there with the best of them thanks to angels blade.

  • Admiral Raptor

    Ancient codex, awful supplements, out of date models, prognosis? Sounds like it’s the players fault.

    Eldar, Necrons, Tau, and vanilla marines can all make strong single source lists. Chaos players would like that too? How can they be so entitled!

  • Ronald A Price

    wow 2 hellbrute formations??? as compared to free vehicles formations??, free chapter tactics??, And We shall know no fear free?? But chaos has to pay for marks and veterans of long war. And after many years finaly gets a Bandaid book. Please this is LOOOOONG over due.

    Do the math.

    x5 chaos Marine mark of khorne, veteran of long.= 90 points
    x5 imperial marines , they shall know no fear, free, chapter tactics, free =.70 points.

    difference= 20 points.

    5 squads of imperial marines vs 5 squads of chaos marines squads as mentioned is 100 point difference. so there is the MAJOR problem with the Current Chaos CODEX. Any questions???

    3 chaos bikers are worth 70 points
    3 marine bikers are worth 63 points

    5 chaos havoc =75 points
    5 marine devestators= 70 points
    and chaos dosent get the free signum

    So you add up all those little extra points here and there and suddenly chaos is over pointed and out gunned and still the marines get formations that give them even more free vehicles.

    DO THE MATH!!!

    • You don’t have to take mark. Lots of units in 40k don’t have ATSKNF… It’s not a big deal.

      • Ronald A Price

        wow , you must being reading in brail and some of the message didn’t come through. I bring up several issues and you only saw 1. AMAZING. bet you are leaning more to the left then the right.
        😉 rated fisticuffs??? ok ….lets try this again, DO THE MATH bright boy.