40K BREAKING: The Charge Phase Teaser!

We knew this one was coming – Games Workshop talks Charges in 8th Edition Warhammer 40k!

After talking about the movement, shooting, psychic powers, unit profiles and weapons, Games Workshop is now talking about Charges and how those will go down in 8th Edition!

via Warhammer Community

“The basic mechanics of this phase are very similar to how they work now. You can select any unit with 12″ as the target of your charge, and your units will move towards them 2D6″.

Enemy units still have a chance to hit the charging unit with overwatch, provided that they are not already in combat. Just as in the current edition, overwatch is a hit on a flat 6 – all pretty familiar so far.

In the current Warhammer 40,000, you need to reach base contact. In the new edition, though, you only need to come within 1″ of an enemy, which in practice means that compared to the current charge range, you get an extra inch.

You also can’t move within 1″ of an enemy you didn’t declare as the target of your charge, so if you want to engage multiple units, you’ll need to brave the overwatch fire of all of them. Overwatch can also be fired multiple times per phase, but as soon as the unit is engaged, they will no longer be able to fire back.”

So we’re still seeing a lot of the same things we’ve already got:

  • Declaring a Charge – 12″ range, 2d6 Random Roll
  • Overwatch – still in the game, still hits on 6s
  • Must stay 1″ away from enemies (unless you declared them as part of a charge)

But the biggest change is probably that you only need to get within 1″ of your enemy for the charge to go off. The second biggest change is that “Overwatch can be fired multiple times per phase” – ouch! If you declare you’re charging a unit, you better make sure you get there.

On the plus side getting a successful charge off just got easier. If you’re within 3″ of an enemy you can’t fail a charge (if you survive the Overwatch fire that is). And even if you’re 12″ out, you only need an +11 on the dice roll to make it…

If you look at these tweaks combined with what we know so far about movement and shooting, the big picture is starting to come into focus. Those random pistols units have had will become a lot more popular to use considering you can fire them in the shooting phase even if you’re locked-in. We’re going to have to see how the fight phase is broken down before we can really make a call on shooting vs close-combat!

 

What do you think of the tweaks to Charging?

  • orionburn

    Thankful for the daily updates they’ve been doing, but wish they would roll these in together a bit more. This one was kind of meh outside of the change in overwatch.

    Didn’t AoS do away with difficult/dangerous terrain? Won’t lie…would like to see that go away.

    • Josh Chestnut

      If they roll updates together how will they have enough material to last til June 17th? lol

      • orionburn

        I know…but this one comes off like a daily update saying the new rule book will be made out of paper or bases will be round…lol

        • Martin Lucaj

          Jokes on you, new books will be engraved on the now useless explosion templates and bases will be chaos stars cut from redwood.

          • Mr.Fister

            As a hipster I welcome those changes very much!

        • Xodis

          It wasn’t long ago that declaring round bases pissed a lot of people off lol.

          • orionburn

            And why the joke vid that GW did with marines on square bases was so hilarious…lol

      • Shawn

        So we know for sure now it’s coming out the 17th of June, or is that the most current rumor?

        • Josh Chestnut

          Current and oft repeated rumor at this point.

          • Shawn

            Gotcha. I hadn’t heard the date before. I kind of figured it would be June, since BoLS reported the rumor of a “special day/event” for GW.

    • Parthis

      AoS did away with it in favour for a more interesting system; terrain has it’s own rules while can help/hinder you.

      For example Deadly terrain features potentially kill your models as you charge through them.

      Some people will hate it, but it’s actually kinda neat; it really does mix up the game.

      • orionburn

        Would kind of fit in with the rules for the new terrain pieces (from SW:A) and how they can help and hurt you. I was never a fan of the rules for charging through difficult/dangerous terrain so I’m curious to see what might change with that.

      • Malisteen

        Actually, 8th edition had already done with difficult terrain that actually slows units down in favor of tables upon tables of wacky random effects, but that was always a complaint of mine, and it remains one of my complaints about AoS (with the disclaimer that, overall, I do like the game, and am glad that they’re taking queues from it in developing 40k).

        The thing is, as cool as it is to have one or two pieces of terrain with unique special rules to help define the narrative course of a game, when you get to seven or eight pieces of terrain, each with their own unique wacky rules, each interrupting and distracting from the game at different moments, it just starts to get burdensome. Honestly, it gets frustrating when terrain does every crazy thing under the sun *except* the one thing you would intuitively expect it to do – slow down units moving through it.

        I would prefer some more fleshed out, simpler, and intuitive rules for basic terrain, and save the fancy rules for, again, one or two pieces of scenario-important terrain per table.

        • Red_Five_Standing_By

          When we play AoS, we usually just play with 1 or 2 of the cool terrain pieces. Everything else is just a ruin, a forest, a wall, etc.

          • AircoolUK

            Same here, except we dump all the ‘fun’ rules because we keep forgetting them and just run stuff as normal terrain unless it’s thematic to the scenario.

            If each terrain piece comes with ‘fun’ rules for the new 40K, no doubt house rules will prevail again and stick to the important stuff like save modifiers.

            What with the amount of extra rules that scenario’s and battles can introduce, sometimes the ‘fun’ scenery can confuse us old folk.

        • pad_uk

          Yep. What he said.

  • Maitre Lord Ironfist

    Before the nuts crack open:
    “Warhammer 40,000 Hey Steve,
    We haven’t gotten to assault yet – don’t worry.”

    looks ike more is to come. Can imagine, just my hopes, for counter assaults. If i understand it correct, you can Move the 2d6 even if it is not enough.

    My bet: Charge will be in the Movment phase, assault will be later. And you can move a little more or opponent can counter assault wit ha leadership check if variable X is true.

    • Walter Vining

      they gave no indication that you move if you fail your charge.

      • kloosterboer

        In AOS, NO movement if you fail to roll enough distance to cover the ground. Note that WH40K, you only have to come within 1 inch….

        • ZeeLobby

          Yeah. I think it’s safe to assume that any related rules in AoS will be coming over as well.

          • Muninwing

            i don’t know at this point if that’s safe to assume. it would be in their best interests to keep the two separate in a number of ways.

          • ZeeLobby

            Oh. I agree. Im sure for them that mostly means stats and aesthetics though. I mean most of the mechanics revealed so far are direct AoS ports. S/T might be the biggest difference so far.

    • Max Blanton

      If we can move without making it as far as we need, I would think I would move AWAY from the enemy, not closer, so they won’t be able to charge me as easily.

      • EmperorOfMankind

        unless you are force to move like you were trying to charge

    • Talos2

      Charge and assault are different things?

      • Not really. What he said doesn’t fit the article – well, the at the least the bit about the movement phase, because the article calls it ‘charge phase’. But it didn’t talk about if the unit may still perform the movement even if it’s not enough or not.

    • Charge is in a separate phase after shooting. Its kinda covered if you read between the lines. So basically all non-charge movement in the movement phase, charge movement in the assault phase

      • Maitre Lord Ironfist

        A man can not have dreams and hopes anymore x)

    • KombatWombat

      By the nuts of the Emperor, my Facebook post has made it onto the BoLS comments! I’m honoured 😀

  • Parthis

    Good stuff. Half-way between AoS and 40K. Getting within an inch is great. Having to declare your target is needed with Overwatch still being a feature.

  • BaronSnakPak

    Dang, I was hoping overwatch was going to get changed. It’d be nice if overwatch was only fired if the charge was successful.

  • ZeeLobby

    Yeah. 2d6. That’s unfortunate.

    • Blinghop

      effectively 2d6+1! improvement lol

      • ZeeLobby

        Haha, this is true. A small tiny boost!

        • AircoolUK

          Plus any modifiers for the unit… some dedicated CC units are bound to have charge distance bonus of some sort.

    • orionburn

      Was hoping they would have done something like an automatic 6″ charge + a D6. I get the whole “something has gone terribly wrong” in a charge phase, but seriously…failing a 4″ charge by rolling snake eyes sucks bad.

      • ZeeLobby

        I mean it’s just a layer of randomness we never asked for in the game, lol.

        • As most layers of randomness bejond hit/wound/save.

          • ZeeLobby

            Haha, yeah, could have just left it there, perfect! 😀

        • orionburn

          As much as difficult/dangerous terrain annoys me I can appreciate the randomness in charging through that, but when you get a crap dice roll when you’re standing in a wide open area it just hurts the soul to fail that charge…lol

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah, And I agree with that as well. To me randomizing charges across an open field is just unrealistic honestly. Difficult terrain totally makes sense.

          • AircoolUK

            I always thought of a failed charge as a split second decision NOT to charge because it might be a bit too far, or your squad isn’t quite ready yet.

      • Red_Five_Standing_By

        I was hoping for M+1d6.

        oh well.

        • orionburn

          Oh…that’s even better. Nids would be in your face quick if that were the case. Figure gaunts are going to get 8″ movement so that would have been killer.

        • Koonitz

          Because an Assault Marine moving 12″ having a guaranteed 13″ charge, up to 18″ feels good.

          No. No thank you. Not even as an excuse to dust off my assault marines.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            This is true. I was thinking in terms of tac marines and terminators.

            A static 6+d6 then?

          • Koonitz

            Which is the old 3rd Ed rules. M’eh. I came from there. While it sucks to fail a 2-4″ charge (multiple times, with my Knights), I actually prefer the random charges.

            Personally, I see it as I am the commander, overlooking a battlefield. I don’t have total control over my troops, which flat move/assault seems to emulate. Randomness is a factor in warfare, and anything can cause things to go wildly against plan. A couple well-placed grenades could disorient a charging unit, stunting their barreling roll forward into a stumble, where they become easy pickings.

            You, as the commander, can rage at the misfortune, but that’s all you can do.

            There’s always a way to fit the narrative.

            Total control, such as a flat charge, helps to fit and support a more competitive mindset, where these people do everything to eliminate randomness. But, as has been said elsewhere, at that point, you’re just playing chess. Go play chess.

          • AircoolUK

            As some smart chap pointed out a few days ago, having a fixed charge would mean scrapping pre-measuring, and not being able to pre-measure introduces more guesswork.

        • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

          I don’t know why they didn’t do that. No one likes 2d6 randomness.

          • kloosterboer

            I do. I’m almost certain there are others who share my opinion.

            The laws of probability, you know.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            Its just too big a spread of probability. Failing a 3 inch charge and losing the game is not fun.

          • kloosterboer

            It sucks, for sure. Been there, done that.

            Enjoy the game, not the result. Just a bit of friendly advice to use as you will.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            I do exactly that. However I also enjoy winning and losing because of my own skill rather than a single unlikely dice result.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            Someone pointed out below. Assault marines will have an M of 12 probably. 12+d6 is too powerful for a charge.

          • Koonitz

            It would give assault marines a 26-31″ threat range. (12″ move + 12+d6″ assault + 1″ engagement range).

            That’s a GUARANTEED first turn charge, with a reasonabe potential for a deep inside deployment zone charge.

            I assure you, you’d see jump pack assault armies becoming king of the field within days.

          • Xodis

            That actually sounds like an amazing idea that is going to get the assault Marines killed. Imagine getting that first turn assault….where the entire army still is because they haven’t moved yet…..all shooting overwatch…..yeah it sounds good in theory but I’m guessing it will be a big mistake to do it.

            Alternatively, Assault Marines could be 6 move and have a special rule for 12+d6 on the charge due to jump packs if it was too imbalanced.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            Well a fixed 4+d6 would give a smoother probability curve. Lots of alternatives, maybe half M plus d6.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            I think 4+d6 is a nice compromise. You can still have those clutch 10 inch charges and you can still fail charges.

          • Knight_of_Infinite_Resignation

            The average would be roughly the same which is why I chose that formula.

        • orionburn

          As an also Nids player I’m okay with your original idea. They’d be going nom nom on turn 2 easily…lol

    • The love affair with random does not appear to be over yet. That’s making me nervous for the rest of the rule set.

      • ZeeLobby

        Well, flamers and templates are already random. Looks like randomized wounds on weapons as well. I guess it’s easy to make a game look great when anyone can win at any time because anything is possible, haha.

        • kloosterboer

          *insert random support comment for supporting randomness here*

          • ZeeLobby

            Nice!

        • I know it’s impossible to get around the dice altogether, but I wish they wouldn’t lean on them so heavily. Particularly in 40k where the game structure (assuming it hasn’t changed) is so rigid.

          • ZeeLobby

            Oh, I mean I totally think it removes a large amount of tactics from the game in general. If everything is random, how do you plan your turn, or start thinking about your next? Those 4 lascannons might kill 4 dreads, or might only kill 1. It’s pretty swingy.

          • The counter argument would be that it makes you adapt on the fly, but IGOUGO does not lend itself to adaptation. Maybe there is a mechanic like Infinity’s Command Tokens or Malifaux’s “fate hand” to compensate.

          • ZeeLobby

            maybe. Those are like solid mechanics built into the game, anything like that on top of what we see so far makes it seem just like a bandaid. And I mean you should already be adapting on the fly depending on your opponents actions. If they always do what you expect, they probably aren’t playing that well. Making everything random jsut means you’re playing against the dice more than playing against your opponent.

          • There are command-tokens as far as we know… can be used for example to interrupt a charging unit. Oh, wait, that makes CC even worse, ah?

          • zeno666

            Yeah, GW is picking something from this and that game and throwing it in the pot to see what comes out.
            Very desperate.

          • Keith Wilson

            the already stated that at a minimum the command points would give a re roll per phase if used …. with the possibility of being used for other more interesting stuff than re rolls.

          • zeno666

            Tactics… right. Haven’t seen that in 40k before. Is that an add-on? 😉

            Also isn’t it funny that you can’t run to engage the enemy (unless you can in the new Hodge-Podge Edition) you have to stop at what-ever-distance.
            But you can fail a charge?

            Such a sad game.

        • zeno666

          Duh! If you want balance go play chess!! 😉
          Space Marines vs Space Marines with buckets of dice and re-rolls on re-rolls, its very close to the fluff ya’ know…

          • Not sure if sarcasm.

          • zeno666

            No worries, its sarcasm 😉

      • Gorsameth

        Random charges is not a bad thing per say. WHFB had issues with stand offs and charge skirting when it was still fixed and imo got better when a random element was added (tho I would have preferred movement + d6 over just a raw 2d6)

        • I would have preferred movement value + D6 with a max of 18 or somesuch. I’m sure dedicated assault units will have some ways around this though.

        • Muninwing

          it got better? no, no way.

          part of the tactics of the game was in positioning and movement, and armies that specialized in movement got hosed when it became a randomized and nerfed mechanic.

          a good player might spend the first two turns setting up movement traps and combo charges, and not get into any melee until making all those charges in turn 3. that took skill, tactics, and deliberate action based on knowledge.

          with the 2d6 mechanic, it became risk mitigation, with many armies with a former 10″ threat range refusing to do anything until they were 5-6″ or less away. far less exciting game.

        • Heinz Fiction

          Yeah, movement+d6 would have been nice. Also I wonder if you’re still failling an otherwise succesful charge if your closest model gets killed by overwatch. Thats a mechanism I really despise as it gives a lot of hidden power to models with high armor/toughness/wounds compared to squishy assault units like hormagaunts.

          • Not only that, but it’s still the reason why assault-units chose not to use their pistols in the shooting phase – you’re only going to increase your required charge-distance-roll.

        • zeno666

          Please explain to me how its not a bad thing.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            I am not saying 2d6 is good but it does add variation to the game. If everything was static, then the game would play like 40k, with armies positioning themselves for a turn or three, waiting for the enemy to make a movement mistake.

          • zeno666

            I guess you mean WHFB.
            It would mean that movement mattered more which would mean that there is some more tactics involved.
            A misstake in 40k where everyone have 360 vision and aren’t stuck in block formations wouldn’t be nearly as bad as in WHFB though.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            I meant Warmachine, actually. 🙂

          • zeno666

            I can agree that Warmachine got more static when pre-measure became a thing.
            But in that game you have more tactics/options involved.
            You can run to engage, there are things like counter charge and other movements outside of activations.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah, tactics. It has tactics, lol.

          • zeno666

            😉

          • Old zogwort

            We don’t want that now do we ; )

          • ZeeLobby

            Haha. Sometimes I don’t. But if I don’t I’d rather play much cheaper games.

          • Drpx

            Yeah, what the eff were they smoking when they introduced premeasuring to that game? So much for their “rawr, play like you have a scrotum and testes” mindset.

      • AircoolUK

        I’d take random hits over having to place a pie lid anytime, especially the small ones. It also means that weapons which had large bin lids can be fired at short ranges without them slapping back in your face.

        • The template changes didn’t bother me, but the D6 wounds on the Lascannon made me twitch a bit.

    • NovaeVox

      It would have been nice if it was more consistent with the “Advance” movement type. Although that would clearly make some units, and by extension factions, better at pulling off charges. That being said, with the movement stat some units will be better at positioning for changes regardless.

      • ZeeLobby

        I don’t think that would have been all that horrible though. I mean why shouldn’t units that move faster charge farther? I think it would have been fine. Or just make it a flat addition. Movement = 6, Charge = Movement + 3.

        • NovaeVox

          Pffft. That’s entirely too intuitive.

    • Hussein Alobaidi

      Says you still advance what you rolled. So not only is it 2d6+1 but u won’t “fail” a charge and be stuck in the same location like a melon.

      At least that’s what I understood from it.

      • ZeeLobby

        Which is kind of a wash. Now instead of staying in the cover you were charging from, your sitting out in the open in front of their gunline.

        • Drpx

          Or in range for their charging, ha.

      • Or maybe it was just a sloppy written article.

        • Hussein Alobaidi

          Oh god, yeah true

    • OldHat

      But do we know if you can do it after you Advance?! Or if you hop out of a vehicle? 2d6 might almost always be plenty! Try this half-full glass of water, Zee, it tastes so much better than a half-empty one. 😀

      • ZeeLobby

        It’s more so the use of random dice rolls than any of those combinations. It doesn’t add anything to the game, just makes it more tactically unplannable. Haha.

        • OldHat

          The game has to have some random elements, or else we are playing Chess with toy soldiers. That being said, it is hard to plan tactically, but that in and of itself forces you to think strategically.

          • ZeeLobby

            Hm. Strategically and tactically kind of go hand in hand, if ever future event has a randomized outcome, it’s impossible to do either of these. The more random rolls they include, the more randomized the outcome. I agree I don’t want it to be chess, but that doesn’t mean random elements everywhere. Random shots, random hits, random wounds, random multiple wounds, random charge, random hits, random wounds, random multiple wounds. That’s like a charge with overwatch, lol.

          • OldHat

            Strategic and tactical are just different levels of thinking. Knowing you might fail a charge means you are less likely to put all your eggs in one basket (ideally) and will spread out over multiple charging units. That was my point specifically. This is going to change how you strategically approach it, whereas a fixed outcome is much easier to plan for and lends itself to deathstars (imo). I think it will work in the grand scheme of the game, especially if we can do charges with Advancing and from vehicles.

          • ZeeLobby

            I mean it won’t change anything. We’ve played this way for 5+ years now. It just means i’ll see even dumber 3″ failed charges and laugh as I blow them off the table. I mean what it’ll do is balance the game through sheer randomness. If everyone is random, noone is UP/OP.

          • OldHat

            No, I get that. I just think that is GW’s view – that a few extra random things here and there help monkey wrench things enough to make it a challenge for both players. Not saying it is ideal, but I think that is the concept. I am still pumped for this edition, even with that random charge thing still around.

          • ZeeLobby

            oh, def. I am as well. It’s been a long time since I’ve taken my 40K stuff off the shelves. So I’m excited to get it all back on the table. Not sure based on what we’ve seen so far that it’ll stay in major rotation out of the games we play, but it’ll get some use for sure.

          • Locomotive breath

            Exactly! Strategy set conditions for tactics, while to a degree your intended tactics inform your strategic thinking, If the overall strategic situation in full of random elements you adjust tactics to compensate for it. It seems 40K’s randomness somewhat tries mitigates/interacts with going for the jugular (example: if your ML2 Psyker you can get 3 powers if you specialize in one area and roll randomly on the tables, oooor you can select two primaris powers u like and can bank on that but have one less power)

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            Then take the weapons that do not have variables.

            That way you only have to worry about Hitting, Wounding and charging.

          • ZeeLobby

            LoL. Guess that is an option. “Well, if i don’t take this half of the game, it suddenly becomes more of a game.”

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            Not every weapon is designed for every type of player.

            Like Magic Cards, some cards are designed for the uber competitive players, some cards are designed for guys who just want to summon dragons.

          • ZeeLobby

            Right, but in the end the core mechanic works for both. This charge distance, and weapons (if proliferate enough) is an example of core mechanics that are inescapable. Would be different if these were changes on unit profiles or something. That would be more like the magic comparison. If I could choose to play the random charging faction or not, that’s one thing. My assumption is that most AT weaponry is going to cause Nd6 wounds as well.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            Even in AoS, there are armies that minimize randomness. I am sure this will be the case with 40k too.

          • ZeeLobby

            I mean that works. It’s just odd that somethings good if it minimizes the effects of the core rules, lol. I mean I’d rather just have stuff be consistent and good things go above and beyond the core.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            Every army is different. From the point of view of non-Marine armies, Marines get a lot of toys, combined with solid survivability (T4, 2+/3+ saves and lots of invul saves).

          • ZeeLobby

            Right, let me use an example. Skaven was a perfect example of random done right. Core rules are solid, no randomness there, but here’s a faction that adds random. And the random is potentially devastating, but also backfires, and maybe there’s ways to mitigate that. That’s an example of good random rules. Rules that are core rules that are random, that need to be mitigated back towards consistent to be considered good, are just bad rules, haha.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            It is not bad game design. It is just a different design philosophy.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah… I’m not sure you can argue that. Overabundance of random effects throughout a game is bad game design… Using it to define a faction as unique, that’s fine. Now you can argue that there isn’t an overabundance, but one charge with overwatch can result in 10+ random rolls. Seems excessive.

            And all this for a game they were supposed to be streamlining and making faster.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            It is not an over abundance of random

            In every game you have random hit and wound, sometimes even damage.

            The biggest difference between 40k and other wargames is that charge is random and there are a few more random weapons (which comes with the cost of removing templates).

          • ZeeLobby

            Random charge, random hits, random wounds, random psychic powers, random psychic dice, random psychic casting, random psychic effects, random perils, random game length, random general traits, random terrain interactions, random night fighting, random who goes first, random seize, random reserves, random table edge, random run, plus a multitude of random tables.

            Some of this is subject to change, and I’m sure new randomness is added, but don’t try to pretend that hit wound and sometimes damage is it. (and this is ignoring more I just can’t remember off the top of my head, and ofcourse all the rerolls of all of these, which are pretty common). You pick up way more dice in this game to handle general game mechanics than any other game in existence. (Except maybe Yahtzee)

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            We’re talking new 40k, not old 40k.

          • ZeeLobby

            I know, hence a lot of those are unknowns (well some are new). I actually don’t think any of those have been refuted yet? Maybe seize?

            I somehow find it hard to believe we won’t end up with more when all is said and done. AoS has a ton of tables.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            Game length is unknown.

            Night fighting is up in the air.

            Most games have a random roll to determine who goes first.

            Reserves are unknown.

            Random charge, still here

            random hits, every game has this

            random wounds, every game has this

            random psychic powers, not a thing anymore

            random psychic dice, Not a thing anymore

            random game length, unknown

            random general traits, probably not a thing (AoS lets you pick)

            random terrain interactions, terrain probably has set effects (like AoS)

            random night fighting, unknown (hopefully dictated by the mission)

            random who goes first, most games have this

            random seize, good mechanic that forces you to gamble with how ballsy you want to be

            random reserves, uknown

            random run, still a thing

            plus a multitude of random tables, probably not a thing any more

          • ZeeLobby

            So the only random thing we know they took out is all the pre-game rolling (traits, pyshic powers). I also updated my list above, random table edge, random psychic effects (smite with d3 mortal wounds), etc. Lets put it this way, if it’s less than 20 things, i’ll die of shock, lol.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            Random table sides and random person who goes first are endemic to the genre.

          • AircoolUK

            But (for the millionth time), if charge range was fixed, you wouldn’t be allowed to pre-measure because when you could if was a fekkin’ nightmare with units moving millimetres to keep them out of charge range. It was just so stupid.

            Even Move value +D6 would have people messing about with moving one or two models a few eights of in inch here, or a sixteenth there…

          • ZeeLobby

            So don’t fix it, but at least make it 6+d6 or something? Plus I dunno. I play a lot of games with fixed charge distances and pre-measuring and SOMEHOW we manage to play a good game. I know it sounds like blasphemy, haha, but it’s not the end of the world!

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            Warmachine gets boring when two hyper competitive players dance around each other for 3 turns.

          • ZeeLobby

            Which rarely ever happens outside of high end tournaments (and usually requires 2 specific lists where this can occur). Good scenarios should remove this as well. But yeah man, lets random it up instead. I’d rather have no clue what’s going to happen!

          • Locomotive breath

            Strategy set conditions for tactics, while to a degree your intended tactics inform your strategic thinking, If the overall strategic situation in full of random elements you adjust tactics to compensate for it. It seems 40K’s randomness somewhat tries mitigates/interacts with going for the jugular (example: if your ML2 Psyker you can get 3 powers if you specialize in one area and roll randomly on the tables, oooor you can select two primaris powers u like and can bank on that but have one less power) another aspect of the randomness is the fact that they are trying to simulate not really the “Fog of war” but more the vagaries of combat, like PVT Snuffy tripping in a crater on the way to the OBJ and the whole stack gets held up for him, or how it takes 3-5 times the amount of time to move a platoon with rucks through the woods rather than the roads and then you’ll find a swamp u never knew was there, and then your SAW gunner takes a nap during a security halt, u walk off without him and gotta go back and all other manner of dumb things that happen in tactical situations including the reserves(unit gets jumpy before combat and comes in early or falls asleep in position and comes on late,or night fighting ( unit is compromised in assault positions and must kick off the fight or unit conducts “stand-to” and discovers the enemy is in close contact) That all being said im not a big fan of the randomness but having experienced combat I can understand the fact that its replicating a element of combat

        • AircoolUK

          And yet, whilst the complaints about ‘more random is bad’, the whole sky would be falling in if they’d replaced the S v T roll with just a flat x+ to wound roll.

          Why not just have one roll to rule them all. Your unit hits/wounds and kill on an x+.

          Screw it, just toss a coin at the start, heads you win.

          • ZeeLobby

            LoL. I mean there’s definitely a degree you want randomness, and a degree you don’t. Clearly coin flipoffs aren’t at the top of players lists. At the same time, Casting powers, to hit, to wound and armor saves are 4 good places to have them. Everything else in the game could easily do without, and you’d get a stronger game imo.

    • gordonshumway

      Came here to say this. I have been mostly impressed by the rules so far (I have a very low bar for GW)…but this one is just a HUGE swing and a miss. Hopefully they will be serious about taking feedback and updating with the yearly handbook. Otherwise this makes melee armies just as bad as they were in 7th.

      EDIT: Okay we get 1 extra inch to work with…that is in fact an improvement…haha I guess…

      • kloosterboer

        Who wouldn’t give to have an extra inch to work with ?

    • zeno666

      Yeah, I did draw a sigh of relief. Now I know that I don’t have to bother testing it out.
      Some things sounded nice, but 2d6 charges, thats very crappy game design still.

    • Jabberwokk

      And I’m back to my mental bunker to wait for release. I almost, ALMOST came out.

  • Prisoner 42

    I guess I’m just curious if you still have to charge the same unit you fired at. Because it mentions you just select any unit within 12″.

  • Djbz

    This is the only part of the new rules we’ve seen that I have absolutly hate.
    No more sacrifice overwatch (well, it won’t be as easy anyway),
    Still 2d6 charge (so my streak of rolling just under what I need unless failure is impossible will probably continue)

    • Haighus

      At least failure is now impossible at 3″ rather than 2″ as before.

    • Koonitz

      If you always rolled 1″ under what you needed, good news. You just need to get 1″ away, so your charge is, effectively, 2d6+1″. You should start passing, now!

  • Talos2

    So you can’t stay in combat and everything gets overwatched regardless of how many units try to charge, sounds like decent combat armies will be even less likely than They are now. Good

    • YetAnotherFacelessMan

      If they were decent close combat armies, you’d think they would make one of those charges to stop the overwatching. 😉

      • Talos2

        Until they leave combat and have to get overwatched again next turn after being shot at.

  • Minyiki

    I really don’t get keeping it at a base 2D6 for everyone when they have gone through the effort of changing movement speeds in other areas. Flamers may have got a boost as well with D6 hits but I guess we will have to see if this is reduced to D3 for overwatch like it is now

    • Gorsameth

      They could have done movement + d6 yeah. Donno why they stuck with the 2d6 for everyone.

      • Koonitz

        Because an assault marine moving 12″ would have a 12+d6″ charge range. Taking into consideration this, and the 1″ engagement range, you have a threat range of:

        26-31″. That’s a guaranteed first turn charge, with a potential charge of “deep into the enemy deployment zone.

        No thank you. Not even to dust off my old assault marines.

        • Tristan Smith

          Or, maybe assault Marines et al have regular move stats and the jump pack is a special move(even if they use it all the time except charging).

          I think tying charge range to move stats would have been awesome. Eldar charged farther than a terminator on average? Makes sense to me.

  • Adam Wright

    I don’t really understand what they mean by saying overwatch can be attempted multiple times. Does that mean if I use my assault marines to charge a unit of fire warriors (let’s say the charge roll is successful) and the Tau shoot their overwatch, that if another unit of Marines charge the Same Tau unit, that they get to overwatch fire on that second Marine unit as well?

    • Djbz

      No it means if charging unit A fails to reach then the unit can overwatch charging unit B.
      So sacrificing a unit to overwatch won’t work as well any more

      • ZeeLobby

        Which just makes me feel like CC will still be a poor option.

        • BaronSnakPak

          No more initiative could potentially balance that out.

          • ZeeLobby

            Maybe? I mean in most cases i feel like CC units usually had better initiative anyway (besides that one era where terrain took it away and no one brought grenades to the battle XD). I dunno, at this point you’re looking at a lot more firepower coming your way, with continuous overwatch and disengaging. Based on the weapons we’ve seen so far, I’m not sure they’ve been toned down enough to balance that out.

          • ZeeLobby

            I also think overwatch could have been more elegant. Don’t shoot on your turn, but shoot first unit that comes into range in your opponents turn.

          • BaronSnakPak

            Tau Interceptor rule then? Full BS shooting in your opponents turn could cripple any hope of running melee units.

            Yeah, a lot of melee units do have good initiative, but unwieldy weapons and charging through terrain knocked em back down to 1.

            Personally, I think overwatch should only go off if the charge roll was successful, otherwise it’s penalizing units that are focused on getting into cc.

          • ZeeLobby

            Well. At the cost of shooring/running that turn. It’d have to be balanced somehow. But it tactically makes more sense then the current version. You order the unit to guard a corner, so they shoot at things that come around it. Maybe with worse BS or something to represent lack of time to aim.

          • BaronSnakPak

            Different game and rules, but this just makes me appreciate how Infinity handles overwatch even more. My biggest gripe with 40K’s assaulting is the random charge distance, it favors the defender when coupled with overwatch-ability never being random.

          • ZeeLobby

            Def true. I really wish GW had made the leap to alternating activations. As I think it does the best at representing real-time battles and reactions. You can prioritize your important stuff, and at most only have to face one units shooting before charging (or charging with no shooting if they need to do something else)

          • ZeeLobby

            Def true. I really wish GW had made the leap to alternating activations. As I think it does the best at representing real-time battles and reactions. You can prioritize your important stuff, and at most only have to face one units shooting before charging (or charging with no shooting if they need to do something else).

          • Graham Bartram

            Initiative? What’s that? No Initiative in 8th buddy.

          • BaronSnakPak

            Yeah, that’s why I said that.

          • Graham Bartram

            LMAO, damn I shouldn’t skim threads quite so fast.

        • Adam Wright

          At the very least, I think CC hasn’t gotten any worse than it was before. Overwatch fire is still not very effective to stop a charge (unless it’s Tau maybe). We also don’t know yet if certain unit’s bespoke rules can change the charge roll. For instance, units that had Fleet in 7th edition might now have a boost to the charge roll like 2d6+3 or something like that.

          I’m betting that certain fast units that are meant to be in CC, such as Possessed, Gene Stealers, Vanguard Vets, Howling Banshees, Wyches, etc, etc, might have built in bonuses to charging.

          Plus we don’t know how assaulting out of vehicles will work yet either. So just like others have said, I will wait and see.

          • ZeeLobby

            Disengage is pretty huge though. Taking a step back and allowing your entire army to shoot at those units that charged…

          • Adam Wright

            That’s true, but if your entire army is dumping its firepower into my CC unit, then it’s not shooting at the other units in MY army. Thus allowing me to possibly get other CC units within charge range, or not killing off my shooty units.

          • ZeeLobby

            I meant shooting multiple of your cC units. Since when in 40K did you have to dump an entire armies worth of shooting into anything, unless it was invisible or a flier. Heck. In most cases a single unit will likely reduce that CC unit to ineffective

          • Adam Wright

            Those disengaging units aren’t doing anything now though. So it’s less firepower coming my way *shrug*

          • ZeeLobby

            I will gladly disengage my kroot to shoot your unit with my broadsides. Heck, it’ll be even better because my kroot will be ready for your next unit.

          • Adam Wright

            We can go round and round on various scenarios but we still don’t have the full picture.

          • ZeeLobby

            Oh. Totally agree. I’ve just seen no improvements for CC. So im waiting for some reveal which will balance this out.

          • Adam Wright

            I think any improvements we see might be in the unit rules instead of the general rules perhaps.

          • Haighus

            There are some improvements- an extra inch in charge ranges and the hitting first for charging units. But I don’t feel this is enough to counter the fact they don’t seem to have improved the other issues much- random charge is the same and Overwatch got a bit better.

            Shooting could be better, could be worse. It is hard to tell based on what we have seen, but small arms at the very least have been nerfed vs lightly armoured armies. Heavy weapons look to be getting buffed though. The impact of cover is also not clear. Based on this it is hard to see how the balance will shift without seeing the full rules and weapons profiles.

            To some extent it depends on what Move value units get too. If Hormagaunts got 8/9″ for example, they would get considerably quicker and more able to get into combat even with the random roles. Orks will probably get shafted again by move though, although they stand to benefit the most from the charge bonuses.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yeah, hitting first is key. I mean really assault units should have just had frag grenades in 6th and 7th. And I can’t discount the extra inch. It’s at least an inch.

          • While they don’t do anything, you neither can hit them, nor does it stop all others to shoot at you anymore.

      • Adam Wright

        That’s what I figured but they wrote that rather poorly I think.

      • Drpx

        And the Tau did grin.

    • Gorsameth

      No.
      Currently you can declare a charge with tough unit A at 12″ who trigger overwatch and then fail their charge. After which fragile unit B can charge without risking overwatch. This will no longer work as the unit can still overwatch at B.

      However once a unit is engaged (so lets say A does make its 11″charge) it can no longer overwatch

      • Haighus

        Presumably it also means that Tau units can fire Overwatch with supporting fire as many times as there are units charged within 12″ too, if that mechanic remains. Which would make Tau very costly to charge and pretty much remove their greatest weakness even more.

        • Gorsameth

          I wouldn’t speculate on things like that. Very possible for Support Fire to go away for precisely that reason.

          • Haighus

            Very true. As it stands, Tau would be an absolute fortress, so I would expect them to change it. Especially with the changes to blast weapons- people no longer have to worry about templates so they can bunch their models together to get more models into bubbles.

  • stinkoman

    Why are they keeping the random roll for charging? anyone like that mechanic?

    • ZeeLobby

      Well, if you wanted to find them, they’d be here somewhere.

    • kloosterboer

      *Raises his hand*

    • Gorsameth

      Without random rolls but get stand offs and skirting the outer edge of charge range constantly. It was a problem in WHFB and the reason they added random distance there.

      • ZeeLobby

        Right, so now you just roll cause you never know when/where you might reach them. Not really sure that’s a solid solution. I mean if a unit can charge 12, but only move 6, then the charging unit should catch them (assuming everything doesn’t have a range of 48″ on their guns). Even more elegant solutions would be to provide charge bonuses to units that want to be in combat.

      • stinkoman

        3-13 inches tho?

        • Chris Fitzsimmons

          I’m pretty sure you’ll find a bunch of units with modifiers to that roll, or the ability to re-roll charge dice etc.

      • stinkoman

        static charge ranges work just fine in other games and allow you to plan tactics. random is just random. mind as well flip a coin.

    • Goatsplitter

      I guess people disliked not getting to pre-measure even less. If you can pre-measure AND not do random charges, you get exactly what Gorsameth stated. It wasn’t really that much of a problem in WHFB because you could not measure until after you declared the charge. (and that ‘problem’ was half of the game’s fun in my book,)

      • Red_Five_Standing_By

        Exactly. There has to be some fog of war, otherwise why bother with tape measures at all. Just play on a grid, like Heroclix.

      • Drpx

        Random distance stimulates the nerds in ways they do not like to be stimulated.

    • Drpx

      Like it better than fixed charge with premeasuring in the game. “Oh, let me just check the distance on everything before I scooch my gunline up to rapid fire—are we still outta charge range?–ah, good, still half an inch away.”

  • Kinsman

    Wait, you can fire while in combat in the shooting phase with pistols or use the pistols IN CC? Those are 2 different things.

    • BaronSnakPak

      You can shoot with pistols in the shooting phase if you’re locked in combat.

      • Blinghop

        The issue then becomes whether or not this means you lose the extra cc attack from having a pistol since you can now shoot with it. And if this is the case, the meta around power weapon choices should be a fun shift.

        • Red_Five_Standing_By

          I doubt you will get a bonus for having a pistol/Weapon combo.

  • Moke

    OUCH those new Overwatch rules sound rough. I really, really hope they’ve reballanced Tau because otherwise they’re crazy OP now if you’re trying to run daemons against them.

  • Ronin

    “You can select any unit with 12″ as the target of your charge, and your units will move towards them 2D6.”

    Am I reading it right in the sense that you move 2D6 even if you failed the charge? If so, that’s pretty huge.

    • Old zogwort

      Jup it appears so but they also got unlimited overwatches :
      “Overwatch can also be fired multiple times per phase”
      Lets hope tau loses their trick

  • Iron Father Stronos

    imagine the power of the skyhammer now.

    • stinkoman

      if youre talking about the formation rules for taking 2 assault squads and 2 dev squads in drop pods, dont worry. all formations as we know them will be gone when all the new rules drop.

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      Formations are all dead.

      • Iron Father Stronos

        Not true. They will be like AOS battalions.

        • Red_Five_Standing_By

          Maybe?

          We do not know.

          All we do know is that there will be 14 FOCs to choose from that can emulate pretty much any way you currently play the game.

          Formations could exist but they would all be brand new. All of the 6th/7th edition ones are dead.

          • Iron Father Stronos

            True, but I bet they will keep some formations that assault from DS. This mechanic will work awesomely with armies that can do that. BA for example. Theyre not a skyhammer but should still be able to assault out of DS

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            Maybe that will be in the rules base now? That would encourage Deep Striking Assault units.

          • Iron Father Stronos

            Which would in itself would be very space marine like.

    • Drpx

      And bubblewrap tactics.

      • Iron Father Stronos

        Very true. The day of the guardsmen is upon us

  • stinkoman

    Dont worry , it was play-tested by the beardiest of competitive players. im sure it will be fine.

    • Those guys that keep running invisible wolf-stars and riptide- and wraithknight-spam and basically know nothing else than that? Yea, I’m sure they’ll take care for Boyz, Guardians and Wyches. They will, won’t they?

      • Blinghop

        The playtesting required the weighing of all units in all armies. So if the guys who only used the best were then asked on how to make the worst worth using, I would say that is a GREAT thing.

        • Solution is easy: Make them cost half the points. Problem ‘solved’.

      • Adrien Fowl

        I wholeheartedly expect wyches to be usable again. They are ones of my favourite models in the game and I’ve got 4 units waiting to be fielded again.

    • Koonitz

      It was playtested by the organizers of these events. Not the players at said events. Organizers who have a vested interest in making a balanced game because it encourages more people to come to their very expensive to run events.

      I’m not worried.

    • Drpx

      More like a bunch of 9-yr-olds who were told to come up with ideas they thought were cool. At least that’s what I took from 7th…

      “What if it could turn invisible, fly, and shoot a big pew-pew laser at everything?”

  • Rajak

    So flamers in Overwatch just got a boost? Can flame multiple times against multiple charging units all of which will fall within the 8′ range. Rocking flamers has never been so sexy!

    • Or Scytheguard… <_<

    • Koonitz

      Unless flamers, now that they are Assault d6, have their Wall of Flame rule removed and have to overwatch like every other weapon. Only being able to overwatch if the assaulting unit is within 8″ of the model holding the flamer is going to nerf the “5 flamers at the back of a 50 man blob, good luck” strategy that grew ever-so-tiresome to see.

      Edit, even the ‘scytheguard’. If they’re reduced to 8″ only, then make your charges at 8.5″. Long bomb charge, sure, but no overwatch. Risk/reward.

  • Raven Jax

    If you read carefully, it looks like they might be changing something that I hated about the game: charging is no longer all or nothing. It looks like maybe when you roll 2D6 for charge, you’ll get to move that distance no matter what, even if you fail the charge and can’t get into close combat. That extra movement is going to be very nice.

    However, yes I realize you’re still going to be open to Overwatch.

    And a unit being able to fire Overwatch multiple times in a phase is one of the last things that Tau needed. And I say that as a Tau player. I’d think that to balance it out they’ll remove the rule where surrounding, non-charged units can fire Overwatch.

    • mugginns

      I think honestly that was an oversight

  • PrimoFederalist

    Ugh, one of my least favorite rules is still here… why random charge, why?! It’s just a +1″ with the within-1″ rule. Lame.

  • Orblivion

    I’ve liked a lot of what I’ve heard about 8th edition so far, but this is pretty disappointing. Why wouldn’t charge range utilize the movement stat at all?

    • Graham Bartram

      Move +D6 would have made more sense. :/

      • Koonitz

        Until you realize a 12″ move assault marine has a threat range of 26-31″. Guaranteed first turn charge with a reasonable possibility of a deep-in-deployment zone first turn charge

        Nah, no thanks.

        • Graham Bartram

          hmm…. good point. I don’t fancy that much either. Well I suppose they could have gone with 6+1D6 but either way, it’s 2D6 and ….well that’s that.

  • RAKSHA

    So close combat quite tuff to crack? ….is that mean 8th still support long range engagements ..lol ..is just hope assaulting units will have some special ability to survive charge..time will tell

  • Red_Five_Standing_By

    I feel like CC is still not viable.

    Sure you get to go first in combat but…

    You have to survive overwatch

    You have to roll 2d6 to get into melee

    If you do not kill the enemy unit, they will fall back, thus allowing your opponent to pelt your assault unit with a barrage of fire with his other units.

    • memitchell

      And, if you do kill the enemy unit, thus allowing your opponent to pelt your assault unit with a barrage of fire with his other units.

      Still not feeling the love for assault units.

      • Red_Five_Standing_By

        They say they want to be anti-deathstar but these changes make it so you want to have a really survivable deathstar unit that can slaughter whole units before the enemy gets a chance to fight back or flee.

        • You’re not surprised, considering that power-tournament-gamers were used to play-test this, are you?

        • Haighus

          That may not be possible under the new rules though, they are cracking down on rules sharing and therefore deathstars ar hard to form. This means that assault armies may need lots of weak melee units instead of deathstars now. Assaulting the majority of an amry in one turn to either lock it, or negate most of the shooting if they fall back.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            2 wound terminators with storm shields (assuming storm shields stay the same) and thunder hammers that strike first will be very survivable and very killy.

            You do not really need Independent Characters (if they still exist) or other army’s rules, honestly.

          • Haighus

            They also have a 5″ move value and are going to be pretty slow/ still very expensive with a Land Raider transport.

            The kind of deathstars currently present are fast and durable, with extra rules giving them advantages in mobility especially. Terminators only have the durable.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            Land Raiders and Spartans will be harder to kill. yes you are spending points but you are delivering a killy, survivable unit.

            Thunder Wolves with Storm Shields will be good at this job.

          • Haighus

            Thunder Wolves will be good yes. But they won’t be as good as they are now when they can get a bazillion extra rules from 3 or 4 different armies.

            They will also often get stuck in the open after charging and shot at again. Elite assault units are the ones I think are most going to suffer with the fall back rules, because they cannot easily engage multiple units at once. Hordes, or multiples of weaker units can do this, and therefore lock down a larger portion of the enemy line.

          • Red_Five_Standing_By

            This is a fair point.

            Could this be the edition of the Assault Marine?

          • Haighus

            I wouldn’t be surprised if it is. Pistols are getting better too so I can see them getting buffed overall.

          • Nyyppä

            Marines got it easy. All you need to do is to consolidate in to cover and you are good with your 2+ saves.

    • Svenone

      Yeah, here’s to hoping that’s where GW recognizes this with the unit profiles and gives some love to these units in the form of wounds or something. As a DE player in the current edition, you’re already praying that your transport survives long enough to dump off whoever to get in CC, now if enemies can just step back and blast them. Ouch!

    • Old zogwort

      They nefed assault even more “Overwatch can also be fired multiple times per phase,” So no more dual charging to prevent overwatch. : (

      • Red_Five_Standing_By

        I wish Overwatch was removed. I hate it.

        Or it was changed so that you set yourself up to shoot the first unit who charges you rather than shooting in your turn.

        • MechBattler

          That’s it! It should work exactly like Interceptor does on AA guns and the like. Using Over Watch should cost you a shooting phase with the unit.

  • zeno666

    lol!! GW want in on the widget market 😉

  • Crablezworth

    All your faith has been for nothing as random charges are still garbage.

    • Goatsplitter

      Wait– who expected an end to random charges? If you can pre-measure, don’t you think you have to have random charge distances?

      • Crablezworth

        no, because I likely took casualties walking into enemy gunfire just to get the opportunity to charge and that unit still gets to overwatch.

  • Goatsplitter

    I sure as Hell hope that 1″ rule will apply to friends too, or the new hotness will be conga lining your tau to force a unit to charge 3 units and experience all that overwatch fun.

  • Napo81

    This 2D6 random thing is still a show stopper.

    The best would have been Movement ( max 6 ” )+ D6 or 2D6 but minimum result being your Movement value.

    • Koonitz

      Until you see an assault marine careen 30″ across the board for a “deep in enemy deployment zone” first turn charge.

      12″ move + 12+d6″ charge + 1″ engagement range = 26-31″ threat range.

      That’s a guaranteed first turn charge with a potential to be half way through their deployment zone.

      That’s straight broken. It would make jump pack/bike assault armies king of the board within a day of release, and you know it.

      • Orblivion

        But not utilizing the movement stat in some way makes no sense. So Terminators are slower than Dreadnoughts according to their movement stat, but they have the same charge range as Assault Marines?

        • kloosterboer

          Not really. Remember, you move first. Then you roll 2d6 to charge. So your move stat matters.

      • Napo81

        Please, read again…. Movement ( MAX 6″ ) + D6

        Or…

        Keep 2D6 but have a minimum result equal your movement value. But I can get that those units having movement of 12 inches may have it OP.

  • Jamie Ellerbe

    I didnt see the announcement about the charging unit going first. Is this still the case? Will charging units go first in assault?

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      Yes, they said so in another article.

  • Fergie0044

    Ah good, more overwatch. Need to keep all those OP assault armies in check!

  • D_Ork

    I get why they do random charge lengths, but 2d6+1 is a bit too random. Like others, I would have preferred M+d6. But hopefully, the benefits of charging are significant, to balance it out.

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      M does not work.

      Assault Marines will likely have an M of 12.

      So the Marines Move 12 then charge for 12 + 1d6. That’s a max of 30 inches!

      • D_Ork

        Good point. Perhaps 6+d6. Just to reduce the randomness.

        • Red_Five_Standing_By

          I could see taking the average if a d6 roll, so 4. 4+d6 is a good compromise. Guaranteed 5 inch charge, possible to get a 10 inch charge. So you can still fail and you can still pull off a miraculous long distance charge.

          • Carey_Mahoney

            If they really want to implement charges failing by any means, they could rather have made it like a charge failing when Overwatch casualties are too high (which could be ignored by Fearless, Stubborn or ATSKNF models for example), not just by the roll of one or two dice (in addition to Overwatch casualties!)…

  • Carey_Mahoney

    Seriously??? They want to keep Random Charge Range?? I already disliked almost every rumored and teased news about 8th ed., but that one does it!
    Except for the Psi-phase, RCR is the absolutely worst part of the current 40k basic rules.

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      Random Charge is the biggest problem? Really?

      Allies, Allied rule sharing, formations, decurions, points imbalance, codex imbalance, bad core rules, weird FAQ rulings, etc. etc. etc.

      Random Charge is not the biggest problem or even close to it, IMO.

      • Carey_Mahoney

        In the basic rules, they are. I deliberately wanted to exclude things like Formations with that notion.
        To be fair, GW could have explicitly regulated formations as never being Battle Forged or as preventing an army from being so, in order to prevent what happened in the end, so yeah. But then again, there would have been less buy-more-to-win, off course…

  • AircoolUK

    Look! If you’d ever played with the fixed charge range and pre-measuring you’ll remember what a fekkin’ nightmare it becomes with people bringing along a fekkin’ micrometer with them to make sure they’re out of charge range, but as close as bloody possible.

    Yes, a charge is random, but you can play the odds, have a gamble. Should I or shouldn’t I? Rather than I will or I won’t.

    Sometimes the dice screw you over, sometimes they don’t and sometimes they turn a losing fight into a winning fight.

    The whole game is based on playing the odds and gambling. You try to put yourself in the strongest possible position, but nothing is certain. If it was, you’d get bored.

    • euansmith

      I concur.

    • Orblivion

      But what does this do to fix the imbalance? 6th and 7th edition favored shooting, and I’ll grant that we have only seen a few pieces of the puzzle so far, but 8th doesn’t seem to be doing anything to address that so far.

      • AircoolUK

        So the removal of AP and most troop level ranged weapons becoming AP – isn’t enough? Armies like Guard and Dark Elder, hell, even Orks will have an armour save most of the time now.

        • Drpx

          Watching Gaunts live through bolters is gonna be hilarious.

    • kloosterboer

      “…The whole game is based on playing the odds and gambling. You try to put yourself in the strongest possible position, but nothing is certain…”

      This.

    • Drpx

      Yeah, random charge with the potential to go over the old 6″ was necessary to balance out premeasuring (and it’s not hard to find rerolls for distance) but good luck explaining that people who’ve tried to charge Tau, got mass Overwatched, failed the charge, and the shot for another turn.

  • pokemastercube .

    tau will domminate the charge phase if they keep supporting fire in the new edition

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      Doubt they will.

  • piglette

    If you don’t roll high enough do you still move what you rolled? I always hated it that you don’t in 6th and 7th editions.

    • euansmith

      You don’t move in AoS. Moving would actually be an even bigger nightmare for the unit failing its charge, as it would now be closer to its enemies! 😀

  • Nate

    I think it’s important to note that the 2d6 isn’t as random as it looks. First off, it’s a bell curve. Meaning, the closer within 12″ the charge becomes exponentially easier. Second, the whole tactics around a 2d6 charge and where movement is involved is the two players movement phases. You use movement to deploy and get in close enough to make the charge nearly automatic, while your opponent attempts to move troops into a sweet spot where you are tempted to charge or have to try it, but are more likely to fail.

    Also, more likely than not many assault units will have rules that manipulate those 2d6 rolls, make over watch harder and so on.

    2d6 charge actually makes sense and adds to the game more than it takes away. Your movement score still matters in the movement phase, thus it affects your charge. Faster units will get in closer before the charge roll.

    • AircoolUK

      Assault units will definitely have ways to improve their charge, and finally, faster units are now actually faster.

  • Red_Five_Standing_By

    I think charges should be one of the following:

    Half M + 1d6
    6 + 1d6
    4 + 1d6

    • Napo81

      All those are good…

  • Orthon234

    2D6 charge is not fun or good. Nothing is more heartbreaking than being a few inches away and derping out on a charge and having your unit then blown away. The same with overwatch killing one guy and now your charge fails.

    Other wargames have static charge distances and work just fine and you can plan ahead better. GW dropped the ball on this opportunity to remove die rolls and speed up the game. Flat 7” with no overwatch is better than this and would speed up the game, reduce die rolls, and be less punishing to the assault.

    • Red_Five_Standing_By

      If it works like AoS, then you get to pick who dies. It doesn’t matter where in the squad they are, so one part of the problem is solved.

    • Drpx

      Do those wargames have premeasuring though? I hate failing charges in front of gunlines as much as the next guy but when you have premeasuring with no variables it makes the game frustrating in other ways.

  • EvilCheesypoof

    I think there’s a little overreacting happening. Charging
    still got easier in the sense that most assault units will have a
    higher movement range, and charge distance required got shortened by 1″. I won’t do the math but considering Tyranids will probably move closer to 10″ than 6″ it will be waaay easier to charge now. The little buffs to shooting armies is probably compensating for how deadly combat will be combined with the new battleshock style morale.

    Also, we know charging units will fight first, we know from Adepticon that all vehicles are assault vehicles, and we know unit profiles, weapons, stats, and points have all been re-balanced. So it’s hard to judge where close combat is yet without the big picture, but again, I anticipate they didn’t want to all of a sudden make assaulting too good, which is why they’re allowing retreats.

    • Nyyppä

      Thus far they have actually made assaulting a lot worse than it is now. The retreating alone kills most melee armies and any hard hitters in those are just a waste of time. Trying to avoid making assaults “too good” apparently means making them worse than they are in a system that is inherently designed to make assaulting a bad idea.

      • EvilCheesypoof

        That’s just because they’ve released all that info before they’ve revealed how the assault phase works. They wouldn’t claim they’re making Assaults better and only do things that make it worse, and again, we don’t know what kind of point and stat balances were made.

        I just think it’s silly to act like this edition is already bad based on a handful of teased rules, we don’t have the full picture yet. We already know it’s been playtested more so than usual too, with help from 3rd party tournament organizers.

        • Nyyppä

          It does not matter how it works. It is true that the units themselves may have rules that counter the basic rule bias against melee. The actual exchange of blows however is meaningless as long as you can just choose to leave the combat.

          We do not know if the edition is bad or not. We do know that the core rules are designed to work against assaults.

  • Nosebleed

    “On the plus side getting a successful charge off just got easier. If you’re within 3″ of an enemy you can’t fail a charge (if you survive the Overwatch fire that is). And even if you’re 12″ out, you only need an +11 on the dice roll to make it…”

    This is a good plus for 7th ed, but they should’ve just done away with the whole random charge distance mechanic for 8th.

    If they want the element of randomness in play so much, why can’t they just do it as M+D6? At least if you are within M distance, you will NEVER fail a charge.

    Enemy being 6″ away and you rolling a 4 on your random charge distance really suck.

  • MechBattler

    Well, Tau players are dancing for joy right now. They get to Overwatch multiple times! Combined with Supporting Fire they can shred every unit you throw at them.
    Tau just became mostly unchargeable!

    • Nyyppä

      Marker lights added to shooting does wonders.

      • MechBattler

        Thank GeeDubs for being dunderheads. They don’t seem capable of fixing something without immediately f*cking up something else.

  • Shawn

    I guess disordered charges will be a risky proposition.

  • Strategery.

    ITT: people that don’t like 2d6 charge range, and people that don’t play assault armies