40K: Stormraven Spam & You

Ravenspam? What the heck is it and why is it a thing? Let’s talk about the “new hotness” that is The Stormraven.

The American Team Championships were last weekend and they shook-up any notions of the meta folks might of had. There were quite a few list trends that emerged but the one that is probably the most surprising is the widespread use of the Stormraven. How did the once maligned Stormraven suddenly become a rockstar in 8th and why does it work? Let’s break this one down:

Stormraven Gunship

The flying brick that is known as the Stormraven Gunship got a huge boost in 8th edition Warhammer 40k. First off, it’s a vehicle and all the enhancements that vehicles got directly benefited the Stormraven. Second, it’s a Flyer – that means if you (somehow) manage to engage it in close combat (which Airborne helps to stop), it can Fall Back (or Fall Forward – Flyers ignore models for movement and can pass right over them after all) and then unload it’s deadly shooting. Third – holy crap can this thing SHOOT! Vehicles have 360˚ shooting just like every other model. And when it comes to guns the Stormraven has them:

(Side note: It’s Plasma is one of the few versions that DOESN’T auto-kill it on a misfire.)

 

As you can see it’s got all the tools in the toolbox in one cozy package. Do you need some anti-vehicle rounds? Melta and Missiles have you covered. Do you need to take out hordes of infantry? How does a Twin Assault Cannon and a pair of Hurricane Bolters sound? It sounds like bullets. Lots of bullets. And that’s just with some basic upgrades! Just don’t forget to “split-fire” so you can kill other vehicles AND infantry at the same time. Let’s not forget this thing can ALSO transport a unit of Infantry and a Dreadnought if you REALLY want to… Is there anything this thing CAN’T DO? Yeah – it CAN’T be HIT! Okay, you can actually hit it, but you’re going to take a -1 to your to-hit rolls because of Supersonic. “What about that penalty for moving and firing Heavy Weapons?” Yeah that doesn’t exist because of Power of the Machine Spirit.

The Stormraven is also a fairly tough vehicle to take out. If you’re not another flyer you can pretty much forget dragging it down in Close Combat (see: Airborne). And ignoring the -1 to hit rolls from Supersonic it’s still a Tough 7 vehicle with 14 wounds and a 3+ save. That’s nothing to sneeze at! It’s going to take some dedicated firepower to bring one of these down. It’s not impossible to take out one or even two of these in a game. But hey, it wouldn’t be called Ravenspam if you were only taking two, would it?

The ATC Meta & Ravenspam

TastyTaste over at BoK has as pretty exhaustive article explaining some of the context for the ATC and Ravenspam. He also has the lists for the top 3 teams (15 lists total) and the top 5 individual player standings. The teams consisted of 5 players per team and the first place team ran two Ravenspam lists for a total of 10 Stormravens on this team. The other 3 lists included a Chaos List with Magnus, Be’lakor and the Changeling with assorted musings, an Astra Militarum List, and an Imperium List with Guilliman, Devastators, Ad Mech Robots, and the Adeptus Ministorum mixed in.

Now before we de-rail this conversation into those other lists, ATC is a TEAM event. As TastyTaste breaks it down, there are basically 4 types of lists: Alpha Strike, Counter Strike, Point Denial, and All Comers. I’m not going to get into that here, but there is a team strategy at play with ALL of the high level teams – even if the plan is “pick the worst match-ups for the other team and wing it” – that’s still a valid team strategy. The Stormraven lists pretty clearly fall into the “Alpha Strike” category. And once you see the lists, it’s pretty apparently why.

Ravenspam: The List

There are lots of variation on this list. There is a Grey Knight version and a Blood Angels version. You can also find other examples HERE and HERE. And these are just from the 19 lists that were reported on BoK, I’m sure there were probably more at the event.

Battalion Detachment – Blood Angels

  • HQ – Commander Dante
  • HQ – Captain
  • Troop – 5x Scouts
  • Troop – 5x Scouts
  • Troop – 5x Scouts

Air Wing Detachment – Blood Angels

  • Stormraven
  • Stormraven
  • Stormraven
  • Stormraven
  • Stormraven

Most of the Stormravens are loaded out with Stormstrike Missiles, Assault Cannons, Multi-meltas and Hurricane Bolters. Sprinkle in your desired mix based on flavor and points. Dante is there for the Aura buffs and because he’s also quick enough to stay close to at least one Raven. He’s a character so you can’t shoot him until that pesky Raven is dead.

This list is designed to push the boundaries – it’s a tournament level list. On top of that, it’s built for a TEAM tournament where players are trying to play the meta of “Paper-Rock-Scissors” and hoping they go first for the Alpha Strike. The Ravenspam list does that on one extreme and it’s pretty good at doing what it does! I also don’t want to discount the players that run or play in the Tournaments. If you’re familiar with the US tournament scene, you’ll probably recognize a lot of the names of the players using these lists. Many of these players have been around the block and are good at Warhammer 40k. Just keep that in mind before you decide to build this army – there are counters to this list and it takes more than luck to win a major tournament with it.

Warhammer 40,000 8th is still in the super early stages of it’s meta game and this is just one lists that has popped-up on the tournament scene. There are others out there and probably more that have yet to be played. If you’re interested in playing at the “high-end” tournament level it’s good to know about these lists so you can start to formulate strategies to counter them.

If a list like this makes you want to avoid tournaments, take a deep breath and remember most major tournaments are also running awesome narrative tracks and side events. It’s okay to play with your plastic dudesmen how you want to play with them – just make sure you’re signed up for the right event and know what to expect!

 

What do you think of Ravenspam? Is it the next “Leaf Blower” or is it just full of hot-air?

  • SilentPony

    Spam lists are for tournament players and no one who belongs in this hobby plays in tournaments.

    • Drpx

      Remember folks, it’s the competitive players who are toxic and antisocial. Fluff bunnies are pure and gentle souls.

      • SilentPony

        Fluff bunnies want to have fun, regardless who wins and loses.
        Tournament players want to win, regardless if anyone has fun.
        Of the two, I know who I’d rather find on Saturdays wanting a match.

        • TypicalPalmTree

          That’s because you are that type of player. Personally I love competition and using your army as a well oiled machine to get the best result possible. It’s almost like having fun is subjective or something…

          • SilentPony

            It takes two to tango, and I guarantee you won’t be having fun when people refuse to play with you.

          • Gangrel767

            Your attitude is poison the the table top hobby.

          • SilentPony

            Wanting to have fun isn’t the same as poison.
            Wanting players to play fairly and not use exploits and ‘technicalities’ to completely overpower and win isn’t poison.

            Poison is rules lawyering, arguing about legality, and dozens of FAQs

          • Gangrel767

            I have LOTS of fun playing competitively. have LOTS of fun playing narratively. No one is rules lawyering here. No one is arguing about legality here.

            You are yelling at competitive players because they don’t play the way you want them to.

            That’s the poison.

          • SilentPony

            No, I’m yelling at tournament players for deliberately trying to find ways to break the game.
            A broken game is not a good thing. No one wants to play a broken game, and tournaments are all about breaking the game is the most current, least FAQed way.

          • Gangrel767

            We are just from two different parts of the spectrum, man.

            I don’t think I have ever met a tournament player who wants to break a game. Usually they just want to do well, and perhaps even win.

            I also see very few arguments or judgement being cast in the tournament community. It seems to always be the fluff bunnies (as you called them) attacking the competitive players.

            Oh well. Such a shame. Enjoy your hobby.

          • Xodis

            As an obvious Competitive players you’re making the same judgement on the “non competitive” player as well. You dont think narrative gamers try hard and want to win? You dont think they actually try to create a strong list WITHOUT having to just buy 5+ of the same model? You’re just as guilty of what you claim the “fluff bunnies” do.

            Narrative gamers normally dont give a fuzzy dog turd about what the Tournament crowd does…until they start bringing that type of nonsense into their world.
            I normally never agree with SP, but he is totally right, and he gave his opinion about who he would want to play.

            Speaking of competition…if you need to spam crazy lists like this to get the win, then maybe your win was less earned and more bought.

          • Richard Mitchell

            8th is out for less than 3 month a people are already pointing the finger at tournament players for breaking (aka playtesting the game). I have never seen a community as toxic toward tournament players as the GW community. Even from my local despite the fact the our tournament players are the nicest players you will meet and actually give people substantive feedback during games. If you don’t like that someone can spam something and win, write to Gw, get them to implement better testing rather than eating your community alive. The more this game is played the more the community starts eating itself alive like during the worst days of 7th. The issue is NEVER THE CUSTOMERS. This is a product, if you feel the product is not working as it should give your feedback to the people who design the product.

          • Xodis

            Are you new? People have been telling GW they want that fixed forEVER, they even acknowledged that they were going to, and while its not perfect, its better.

            The Toxicity comes from no standards to separate narrative and competitive players. If you roll up with this Stormraven spam with some back story, who is to say youre not a narrative player? This is another issue that has been brought up and acknowledged, just not fixed.

            Plus, anyone can be nice, doesn’t even matter really. Sure its probably easier to get wiped off the table on round 2 if the guy isnt a jerk about it, but even if the guy is a jerk you might like to enjoy playing a full game and having a chance lol.

            But sometimes the issue is also the customers, using a product in a way its not meant to be used is the customers fault plan and simple, GW just needs to be more vocal about that rather than relying on the “gentleman’s agreement”, because obviously “nice” Tournament players still play narrative players and cream them.

          • Richard Mitchell

            Well can’t you just not play matched points if you are not a tournament player. Like if someone approaches a narrative player, they could say “I want to do narrative play or power levels?” The only thing GW needs is more free support for narrative support but I wouldn’t be surprised to see some narrative books like in AoS down line soon. If someone is a narrative player and plays a matched points game against a tournament minded player that sounds like the narrative player’s fault since there are 3 ways to play.

          • Xodis

            lol Narrative players usually dont go looking to challenge someone with some Tournament beat stick list. Maybe if everyone introduced themselves as a narrative player or tournament player, this could all be fixed so we could segregate ourselves. As I have said though, there are no defining lines between the two players except for what they think of themselves.
            Power levels are not the standard for narrative players either, since that can be abused as well. I’ve only seen those used by players making lists on the fly when in a time crunch.

          • Walter Vining

            one mans fluffy is another mans WAAC

          • Xodis

            I totally agree, its why GW needs to put up some sort of identifier, whether it be LOW:Point restrictions, unit limitations, etc..

          • Walter Vining

            why does GW need to do it. If you want those kinds of restrictions play in an environment where they are. with knights being a thing you cant put a restriction on an entire codex or you will alienate some players.

          • Xodis

            Because its their game, and its part of their promise to the gamers in that original FaQ. They made the promise so they need to live up to it.

          • Walter Vining

            they never promised unit restrictions.

          • Xodis

            No they promised balance. I didn’t say there specifically needed to be unit restrictions, just some type of balancing mechanism that can separate or balance the field between the narrative/casual players from the Tournament/Power players.

          • Walter Vining

            That’s not the game companies job to separate people out. its job is to create a game. the balancing mechanism for the game is the basic rules, the points and the mission design. its not their job to put people into buckets and say bucket A cannot play with bucket B. if you don’t want to play with bucket A, don’t play with bucket A that’s YOUR balance. the company isn’t responsible for how people choose to play their games.

          • Xodis

            It is when it causes an imbalance in their game, or they need to make more balanced rules so the buckets no longer exist. Bottom line is there is a problem in the game itself and it IS their job to fix that, however they choose.

            You keep saying its not their job to separate the buckets, but THEY decided to make the different buckets between narrative play, tournament play, etc… When the game is designed around different types of play, they need to define those types of play better than “whatever you choose” because as it stands an army without a single drop of fluff can play narrative and decimate.

          • Richard Mitchell

            How can you use a game in a way it is not meant to be used. It is a game, a set of rules with an objective. This is counter-intuitive to the concept of game design from a consumer point of view. Now if the game designer feels that they designed an aspect of the game that is not being played in the way that it was intended then who is responsible for patching that? The game designer. So if you believe the game is not being played as the game designers had intended, vocalize your concerns to them, bring it to their attention, and they will decided whether the game is not playing according to the products scope and will patch it with an FAQ. If they do not, then the game is being played as intended.

          • Xodis

            Again….. are you new or did you even read what you replied to? These concerns HAVE been vocalized to them, they have even responded to these concerns with their statements about having different modes of play for narrative, tournament/competitive, etc… Its just not complete/finished/balanced/released yet.
            Designers not fixing their game =/= the game being played as intended, only that they never completed what they stated they would complete. Do you honestly believe that all of the Deathstars were being played as intended…if so, I guess that means that GW altering the game to help prevent that was a coincidence.

          • Richard Mitchell

            As someone who works in core production, yes, if they have heard customer complaints and have not made it a priority to patch those issues, then yes it is working as intended or is considered so low priority as a defect that it might as well be.

          • Xodis

            As someone who has worked in programming, no, just because its not fixed doesn’t mean its suppose to work that way. Things take time, and all ideas are not good ones, nor will they work to remedy the situation.
            Not sure what core is, but seeing how long it takes Blizzard to fix known issues with StarCraft correctly when they are only balancing 3 factions in a video game compared to the 10+ 40K has, no one should expect an overnight fix.

          • Zingbaby

            How do you think we arrived at 8th edition, the “Chosen edition” to bring the universe into harmony?

            And you give people WAAAYYY too much credit. A toy game company is at fault for producing inferior products – but ooh how sometimes it really is THE CUSTOMERS.

          • Richard Mitchell

            I wasn’t the one saying that 8th is the Chosen Edition, you have to look at unnamed cheerleading news sites and YT channels for that. But no it’s not the customer. And I wouldn’t say it was GWs fault. They didn’t promise that 8th would be all things to all people, that is why they have three ways to play. Matched cannot be all things to all people so you have two other ways to play. The real problem are the cheerleading sites that said 8th would be all things to all people and more. That it was the Second Coming of gaming and return GW to the days of its glorious 90’s standards, despite 12 years of leaving a vacuum for competitors to not only exist but grow.
            Remember 40k is a product. If you think that the product has faults don’t blame the customers for using it, ask GW to fix the issue. Clamor to them. It is this whole community eating each other alive that is toxic, rather than just seeing yourself as a customer and voicing your concerns to GW. Or….in the eyes of cultish brand loyalists is it more acceptable to shame and blame the members of the cult, rather than place blame on the most glorious leader and ask for change?
            I wouldn’t know, I am only a disgusting consumer, not a clean true believer.

          • Brettila

            To be fair, GW won’t care. 5 stormravens are a buuunch of money. If you want to buy it, they will bless you. Plus, 2 years down the road it will be junk, and you’ll have to buy all new stuff.

          • Bigalmoney666

            “If you don’t like that someone can spam something and win, write to Gw, get them to implement better testing rather than eating your community alive”

            Translation: We found a way to brake it, if you don’t like it take it up with GW.

          • Damistar

            Have you ever met a tournament player who refused to take a “broken” net list? Or decided against the most convenient interpretation of the rules that let him create one? The above spam list is basically “unit X is great so I’ll take as many as possible and then the minimums to make it legal.” There’s no fun here, just exploitation. The “poison” part is that it discourages those of us who like to play games that reflect the rich background of 40K. Just my 2 cents though, play as you like.

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            Irony is, the only unbalanced part of that list, arguably, is the 5 Storm Ravens. As far as minimums, the rest of the list is only there to play the mission. Really surprised that he didn’t try to shoehorn in a Brigade, or a second Air Detachment, to try to max out CPs.

          • Brettila

            He did. The first part IS a brigade.

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            No, it’s a Battalion. Brigade is minimum 6 Troops and 3 of everything that isn’t a Flyer, Fortification, Dedicated Transport, or Lord of War .

          • Richard Mitchell

            Best person to teach how to play any game and get real feedback from is a tourney player, at least in my experience.

          • Walter Vining

            Ive met several competitive players who try to break the game.

          • Richard Mitchell

            Tournaments are not about breaking the game, but the frequency in which tournament players play, they find what is broken. If anything, issues like this should be aimed at the people who write the rules and not play them. And should push the community to ask GW to the same crowd sourced feedback design method you see with CID.

          • Richard Mitchell

            Agreed. Tournament players are the biggest buyers of the product and the most involved. Not saying casual players are not important but you are talking about shaming and ostracizing a person because they enjoy exploring the game mechanically and are taking things that are not illegal within the scope of the rules. And do so to deny them from playing something that they payed a lot of money for and may have spent a lot of time painting or converting. If a guy ends up taking 500 points more than the agreed point limit, then you have grounds to be pissed. And arguing against someone’s preference is not rule lawyering.

          • Zingbaby

            Where the heck are you getting your “facts”?

            I know people with entire rooms of miniatures going back many editions who never play in tournaments.

            Tournament players buy “lists”. Everyone else buys armies.

          • Zingbaby

            Words are not the poison here… the restrictions/limitations we will ALL suffer because of some WAACtard that can’t play nice with his toys, …that’s the poison.

          • Brettila

            Not at all. I understood that he was saying WAAC players shouldn’t be surprised if no one wants to play them down at the local store.

          • Zingbaby

            No – the guy who is so desperate to ‘WIN AT TOYS!!’ that he’s willing to give his opponent an obnoxious time, is the poison.

            This is exactly what GW vowed to fix because it was killing the game, people hated it… sadly it would appear they have failed.

          • ZeeLobby

            Yup.

          • Richard Mitchell

            So rather than saying “hey this might be broken maybe we should contact GW to FAQ it” we shame a person for buying and painting models we don’t like. I thought shaming belonged to cults?

          • Richard Mitchell

            I agree winning is fun. I think it is losing to an unfair fight that sucks. If you have to say, don’t take these models you bought and painted, or this game won’t be fun. Something is wrong with the game. Never understood this blame the player nonsense. Doesn’t happen in any other game produced on the market.

        • Sparowl

          I’ve seen more fluff bunnies get in arguments over obscure stuff then tournament players.

          Everyone wants to have fun. You don’t get to declare only one side does, just because you view it that way.

        • nss

          If you want to have fun in a way that isn’t dependent on winning, why do you care if the tournament player does things that lead to the winning? Sounds like you want to win but you also don’t want to put any effort into getting that win, and you want to externalize the cause for your loss instead of looking in the mirror and admitting you want to win and that you don’t want to do anything constructive towards winning.

        • Drpx

          And I’d like to find a Russian supermodel who’s single, likes Ramen noodles for dates and only dates gamers. Have you found your unicorn yet? I’m still looking for mine.

        • snider029

          Damn guys it’s like people will play how they want and have the ability to choose their opponent. whiners.

        • Lebowski1111111111

          you literally have no idea what you are talking about, im embarrassed for you actually.

      • Horus84cmd

        Haha yeah – I’m pretty confident that every store or gaming group has those hardcore fluff players who go around saying “Ooo no you can’t do that! That’s not true to the background. In this ‘obscure book’ from it say so…”

        • Drpx

          Those people I wouldn’t have a problem with if I ever actually met one. I’m only lampooning the virtual-signaling types who say they just want to get a game in and then have fun and don’t care about winning, then get mad when it doesn’t happen the way they wanted it to.

          Because it turns out they did care about winning.

      • Zingbaby

        I’d say if you are so desperate to ‘Win at toys!’ – then you’re at least a loser at life, and likely antisocial. Toxic in the way that your actions will result in consequences for everyone else.

        Fluff bunnies might complain but they’re not ruining the game for everyone else. When Dante get’s a nerf because of what this WAACturd did – you won’t be able to blame the fluff bunnies.

        • Drpx

          If you’re truly fluff-focused, you shouldn’t care about Dante’s stats unless you’re so desperate to ‘Win at toys!’ Also, lol, GW doesn’t give a crap about tournaments, they nerf/buff depending on sales or whatever they think is cool which is why ITC is a thing.

          • Zingbaby

            GW hired the tournament organizers to help playtest – I think you have NO idea what you’re talking about. And fluff-bunnies want balance too.

          • Brettila

            Sadly, they did not test nearly enough. Long ranged shooting and removal of cover are too cheap. CC is overpriced. The ability to avoid wounds (Tau drones) WAAAAYYY too cheap. Taking 1 wound hits on suits while anything doing multiple wounds on drones can add 50 extra wounds to a unit. Do the math if you don’t believe me. That is not factored in to drones costing 8 points.

          • Walter Vining

            no ITC is a thing because people bought into the kool-aid that they were “balancing the game” when they really didn’t. their mission packs and voted on rules changes so people could play reccehammer didn’t do anything to create a more balanced game.

    • benn grimm

      There’s nothing wrong with tourneys, the people who go know what they are signing up for and enjoy themselves. The problem is BOLS constantly focusing on a small part of the hobby which its readers are on the whole, pretty uninterested in/ hostile towards.

      • Gangrel767

        BINGO!

      • Zingbaby

        The real SPAM issue is — opening BOLS and the advert bloat/spam crashes your browser!

        This place is a cesspool of advertising, 4 of the same ad in one window plus many many more. This site sucks now.

        • benn grimm

          Completely agree, though last time I mentioned it it got deleted pretty fast. Guess it’s a sensitive issue.

        • Median Trace

          Dear good, I can’t upvote this post enough!!!

          • Zingbaby

            Seriously, I get cashing in on advert spam to an extent – but they must have hit a point of diminishing returns because some people can’t even open this site anymore.

        • Horus84cmd

          Sir, advert blockers are your friend.

          • Zingbaby

            What’s a good one for this site?

          • Horus84cmd

            Well I use a Chrome extension from Avria called Avira Browser Safety. I don’t know if you can get it separately from using Avira Virus Guard – which I use with my laptop.

        • We do not authorize redirects or pop-ups – for more information on what’s going on and how to report it: http://www.bolsinteractive.com/2016/09/25/techreport/

          In addition: we can’t provide adequate tech support in the front page comments. If you have an issue: follow that link and follow the directions. Comments about this – beyond this exchange – will be removed to keep threads on topic.

    • Can we stop using hobby and 40k interchangeably? Whatever your views on the rights of other people to chose how to spend their money and free time, there are games out there that don’t have a spam problem.

      • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

        But we don’t play those games. Ethical Consumption, aka consumer boycotts, don’t work without a combination of obvious and direct alternatives, and coordinated action, and getting this community to agree on taking action beyond whining about what’s unfair in this game is basically impossible.

        • What action would you take? Physically stopping people from playing 40k if they aren’t fluffy enough? Let me know when this is going to start. I’ll pop some popcorn.

          • Xodis

            Thats easy, simply ignoring and refusing to play those players works wonders. There is a time and place for Tournament style lists and there is a time and place to leave them at home. Its up to the “mature” player to decide which is which and not try to force their own perogative on others.

          • Generally what has happened in my area is that non-competitive players just went underground. They play at home against people they know. This has two problems though. One, it gives the impression that fewer people are playing 40k. When some “kid” walks by a table and sees something cool, it’s usually Warmachine, Inifnity, Batman, or Guildball. I’ve seen more games of AoS being played than 40k over the last couple of years. Two, it means that when someone does start 40k, all they run into at the shops are competitive players. Even if those players aren’t jerks, they are still playing high point levels and using strategies way beyond a beginner.

          • Xodis

            Yeah, Im pretty guilty of creating an underground narrative group myself. I made it a point to stick around the stores enough to try and “rescue” (or horde lol) the newbies though. I dont think players generally fall into the competitive/non-competitive crowds 100% though. Sometimes peoples taste change or they just need to switch it up for awhile as the same thing gets stale. Anything that can officially separate the groups so they choose to bounce back and forth would probably work. I think Power levels can be that something if nothing better arrives.

          • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

            People more or less already do that in Casual play, and tournament rules attempt to do that in a more thorough and surgical manner (sopps to popular acclaim/disgust notwithstanding).

      • Zingbaby

        Except GW vowed to fix this.

        ‘In 8th you won’t have to face super obnoxious armies anymore, cuz they have the Frontlinegaming guys (who created the obnoxious armies movement) on the case!’

        Funny how that didn’t work out as intended.

        • I’d love to know how much actual play testing happened. Anyway, I don’t see what this has to do with 40k players using the term “hobby” to reference one game.

          • Zingbaby

            Oh yeah agree about ‘hobby’…

        • Xodis

          Well its already about a 40K steps forward from 7e…so its progress at least.

          • ZeeLobby

            God really? This seems equally bad. Heck the spamming assassin’s seems even worse.

          • Xodis

            Its still early and we are running off Indicies instead of real Codices. Plus its the Tournament crowd who tested this thing, so if anyone knows how to break it, its them.

            I havnt gotten a game in just yet (still painting) but I watched a few and my buddies seem to enjoy it more. So ..progress.

          • ZeeLobby

            Oh. I could see the game being more fun to play, especially for those who enjoy AoS. Personally I haven’t enjoyed either all that much so far, but I like more depth to games in general.

            I was speaking more to Zing baby’s original comment, and that they did a pretty poor job of removing the ability to play obnoxious armies. It’s almost easier than ever. The only thing they really succeeded in removing was never-should-have-been allies and super friends.

          • Xodis

            Well the hardest part has to be balancing the ability to allow players to field what they want, and keeping it fair. Thats got to be an almost impossible task, but they did pretty good with the 1.0 release from what I have seen. Either way it seems like a big step forward, but I never expected it to be perfect from day 1. Points adjustments are going to be their true test.

            Remember, even 5e needed some tweaks after the beginning and I believe that to be both of our favorite editions (prior to Ward ruining it).

          • ZeeLobby

            WARD!!! *shakes fist at sky

            That out of the way, I think there’s definitely the possibility of them making the game better than 6th/7th, but I think it’ll take a while. They’re about to release 10 new codexes, 2 new factions, etc. I think it could be a long while to they fulfill their 8th edition promises. The initial promise was pretty goofy to begin with. And it’s pretty evident that the staged “playtesting” was more for show than balance. But oh well, they have time.

          • Xodis

            Its possible, but they kept their promise with the new GHB2 only a year(ish) later, so I think we can safely assume that GW actually cares enough about rules to attempt to do much better. Getting info from the Tournament crowd about what they are going to break the most had to be a good step forward, they are talking directly to those who break the game in effort to fix it, rather than the large masses that only experience their own meta. Maybe news of this tournament and the others that are bound to follow will help shape some tournament rules that I believe were mentioned.

          • Zingbaby

            It’s a WAAY more fun game, but yeah the balance issues persist sadly.

          • Zingbaby

            To be fair – I like 8th so far as well.

    • Horus84cmd

      It may not be your “hobby” but it is their “hobby”. It’s not my bag; however, if they enjoy it so what? It really doesn’t matter and its certainly isn’t your place to assert that “they don’t belong”.

      http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/31995af8441f13574544c2f62c9c616ce65c54985af05e6a54a4df7dedee8df4.jpg

      • SilentPony

        No, they’re the ones who ruin it. They find the cheap exploits, the typos that mean X and Y are technically legal, the oversight that means Rule 1 and Rule 2 both apply giving some unit a 2++ rerollable or plus 6d6 attacks on the charge…

        And that’ll lead to a dozen FAQs, rules lawyering, every place having different house rules on whats allowed, arguments over X, Y, and Z not being allowed, new $80 rulebook three times as big to account for the bs tournament players came up with, and before you know it, Boom, rules heavy clunky obtuse game.

        • Horus84cmd

          They only “ruin it” if you let them “ruin it” for you personally. Just ignore it and get on enjoying the way you like to engage with the hobby.

          • SilentPony

            Problem is, at least in my town, there are very few people who actually play. And I don’t want my only match this month to be someone spamming stormravens and assassins.

        • Gangrel767

          This attitude is poison to the hobby.

          • SilentPony

            No, its not. Spam is poison and its why Formations died with the change over.

          • Karru

            Actually Gangrel767 is right. You are basically blaming an entire group of players because a fraction of that group does this kind of bs. A highly competitive or even mildly competitive player who frequents a tournament, which makes up the vast majority of said players, are not toxic or poison. These are usually the people that are getting more people into the hobby.

            If there is an event going on with miniature games there, you can bet your *ss that there will be a guy demo’ing the game there. That guy knows the game inside and out and wants to share the game with others. They know when to be competitive and when not to be.

            You on the other hand seem to only care about one thing. Burning everyone who is even slightly competitive on the stake while patting yourself on the back because you are such a good hobbyist.

            As someone who prefers collecting and painting over gaming and absolutely hates hardcore tournament lists, I simply can’t fathom how these people would be toxic to the game as a whole while I can clearly see why someone like you would be. People should be free to enjoy the hobby however they like.

          • SilentPony

            I’ve seen more people come into the hobby with 8th because its simpler and easier with less rules to keep track of and less BS to comb through than I’ve seen in decades.

            And now it looks like tournament players are all set to drive them off. Remember tournament players test their lists at the local stores, against the new players who don’t know any better. And they crush the new players, who aren’t having fun anymore, and may just go back to something else, ’cause its kinda expensive and their army isn’t that good anymore, and maybe they’ll get back into it when some of the rules change, etc…

            And now we’re down players.

            But hey, at least the tournament players have fun, right? Who gives a F about other people having fun?!

          • Gangrel767

            Spam is annoying. Spam is boring. but no…not poison. Spam has been around as long as the hobby has. If something works… take a couple! Pretty common.

            Negative, condemning attitudes are poison.

            Why can’t you be happy for those who like to play that way? You mentioned you have a group of like minded players… awesome! Do they sit around and judge others all day too? I hope not. I hope they are having all that FUN you preach about.

            I just don’t understand.

            It’s 40K… almost anything can have a fluff reason for it.

            Ultimately, I should not have provoked the conversation. My apologies. I’m sure we’ll never make each other understand one another’s perspective anyway. Enjoy your hobby.

          • SilentPony

            If I were to bring nothing but Stormravens, yeah they’d judge me and good odds they’d refuse to play that list. And I’d deserve it.

          • Gangrel767

            Then I guess you have found the right group for you.

            My group would say “wow” and then play a game of 40k with laughter and smiles. So glad I have more open minded friends.

          • Justin Kemple

            I’m sorry but everytime ive been to a tournament whether thats the atc, lvo, local rtts everyone is having fun. I’ve never been to a tournament with a bunch of trolls complaining to each other like the so called “fluffy players” and their sore loser attitudes do. It seems like the only one not having fun here is you silentpony. I used to lose every single game of 40k I played but I didn’t sit there and complain to the guy because he won with some spam list and tell him to play another game I kept playing and got better.

          • Brettila

            Well, while it may not be poisonous, per se. All the salt and nitrates in Spam can’t be good for you… 😜

    • Dave

      Not the best attitude man. Everyone has their own version of “the hobby” and yours is obviously not tournaments (mine either). That’s what is great about this particular edition, it encourages three styles of play. I personally like narrative games and am developing a campaign at home.

      Tournament players aren’t “toxic” (the BoLS comment section is 😜) they just have their own way of playing the game that is only welcoming to like minded players. Truth is that they are a very vocal minority in the community and they tend to exploit rules to win games. That’s just how they do it and it’s not for everyone.

      Play how you want, but remember not to (or try not to) insult other people’s way of playing. It’s a game. Enjoy it and let others do the same

    • KingAceNumber1

      The only people who think this are the ones who have never bothered to try a tournament. If they weren’t fun, people wouldn’t go to them. Some of the nicest players and most fun games I’ve encountered have come from tournament play.

      The broad brush with which you are painting a large portion of people who just want to enjoy the same game you enjoy does nothing except expose your own insecurities and close-mindedness.

    • I play I tournaments. I take fluffy lists. I took blood angels assault marines to BOA in 7th edition.

      I was building a list centered around cavalry to take to NOVA before 8th dropped.

      Turns out you can have cake and eat it too.

      • Zingbaby

        But when your Dante get’s nerfed cuz of one WAAC guy I bet you might feel a little different about that cake…

        • No Dante even. Turns out most of the people at a big tournament are normal gamers and there just to have fun knowing they won’t win the whole thing. The WAAC player is largely nonexistant, and the few there are on the top tables and wont face you. And usually they are good sportsmen too. And if they aren’t it is because they are dicks and would be if they played narrative or competitive. It is their personality not the playstyle.

          So even when I knew I was going to loose a game, I made a goal in my mind to stick to for personal satisfaction.

          The only bad game at BAO I had was one where my opponent showed up 30 minutes late and then took 25 minutes to deploy and start. Which had nothing to do with what he played. And the game actually went better from turn 2 onward.

          • Bootneck

            I’ve had games like that before, I’m surprised the organizers didn’t step in and line up another opponent.

          • They were about to when he showed up. The ringer was going to get his army. By the time he was done setting up it was too late to switch

          • Zingbaby

            You are generalizing some fairy tale about tournament gamers in the same way some folks generalize that they are the boogie man… but “THAT GUY” is not what I’d consider a “normal gamer” and he goes to a lot of tournaments that I’ve seen.

            It’s not fair to blanket blame tournie guys… but THIS list (See above) and so so so many like it, are found at most of the big tournaments… it’s not the fairy tale you are pretending it is.

    • Painjunky

      Some people like to play competitively.
      They are not hurting anybody.

      Why are fluff bunnies so triggered?

  • Drpx

    Its funny, I used to look at my Stormraven as a fluffy gamble because it plus it’s cargo and ST escorts were a load of points sitting in Reserve and vulnerable to a lucky shot when they actually did come in.

  • benn grimm

    Why do you keep spamming these articles? Haven’t you noticed the majority of your audience isn’t interested?

    • georgelabour

      And yet they receive more comments than just about every other article they make.

      • benn grimm

        40k gets more hits than anything else and that’s no big surprise, whether these kinds of articles get more I dunno, I guess it’s possible. Bit sad if true.

        • They do, because people click on them to rage at the boogeyman WAAC players who “ruin everything.” I mean, if it wasn’t for WAAC players, we’d have had plastic sisters 10 years ago.
          /sarcasm

          • benn grimm

            Yeah you’re probably right, but it’s a shame, just gets people all riled up against other people in a pretty small community unnecessarily.

          • Zingbaby

            Agreed… I think it’s pretty obvious looking at this site that clicks mean money, so for BOLS anyway it make sense.

            But 8th was supposed to be the “chosen one” edition that brought the universe together. It was supposed to curb super obnoxious and unfun builds (to play against) by hiring the very people that encourage / advertise that sort of play… well, it failed.

          • benn grimm

            Did we really expect the guys who profit from it to prevent it? Imbalance sells, an ever changing meta sells, the illusion of balance sells, the articles highlighting/promoting the problem, also seem to sell (garner clicks anyway). It was all just promotional hype imo, just like the claims of extensive play testing. Personally I quite like this edition so far, despite the coverage of it.

    • TypicalPalmTree

      Because polarizing articles attracts eyeballs. People either love or hate “spam” lists.

      • benn grimm

        Sure, but on BOLS the majority seem to hate them and this particular kind of approach. And yet they churn them out disproportionately more regularly than any other kind of article.

        • Pimpcron

          You also have to take into account that articles explaining why a WAAC list works is way, way easier to write than an original article/thought. Not bashing, just being honest.

        • The hard numbers don’t support your assumption. We produce and publish content based on data – what readers SAY they want ≠ what they actually respond to.

          • benn grimm

            Fair enough, can’t argue with the data, or how you interpret it and what you choose to do with it. You guys do a good job clearly. It just seems a shame (and a bit cynical) to promote conflict and division on such a popular platform just to increase the number of clicks/comments.

          • NNextremNN

            Well you are here and actively commenting so you can’t say you don’t like those kind of articles.

            I was curious about the details and wanted to read what others think. But most just say they hate those list and tournaments and tournament players in general and how they all ruin the game for everyone everywhere. When it’s an article clearly aimed at people interested in such things.

            I sadly saw little suggestions in how to counter such lists or how they expect tournaments to change or restrict things to void such situations.

          • benn grimm

            Of course I can say I don’t like them. That’s the point of feedback; you say what you like, you say what you don’t. Really it’s not so much the article taken alone, it’s the fact that the poster knows the stink it will raise in the comments and posts it anyway specifically for that reason. It’s presenting a very niche view/approach as the norm (multiple times in a week) to a bunch of people who constantly bang on about how much they hate it. Personally, I don’t care how you play 40k, unless we book a game together, I’m just sick of the same boring arguments playing to people’s already ingrained prejudice. What it actually does is reduce the discussion about balance, and the genuine interest in the debate about how the new game is shaping up, to a slanging match about how one way to play or another is more valid.

    • ZeeLobby

      Because we click them to tell them we aren’t interested. I wish there was a dedicated site like BoLS which posted narrative pieces, hobby articles, and had no ads.

      • Malisteen

        The problem with narrative stuff is it tends to be very group-specific. For most players, if they’re not personally playing against those specific people and their specific armies in their homebrew campaigns and scenarios, it just doesn’t mean a lot to them. Dispassionate rules-clinical tournamentish stuff, while a minority of the hobby, also tends to be more widely applicable.

        Like, imagine D&D content, with one site putting out character builds and number crunching based on official material, while another site is putting out long narrative character histories of their personal PCs, along with esoteric homebrew stuff based on those particular stories. The latter may be closer to how most players play the game, but the former is going to be more readily applicable to their own characters and more readily usable in their own games.

        Tournament theory-hammering articles are also much, /much/ easier and faster and cheaper to produce than hobby or narrative stuff, since it can fly off the top of the head, as opposed to hobby stuff that you can’t really post without putting hours into converting models and writing narrative. Oh, sure, /good/ tournament theory-hammering also requires hours of play testing to back up the theorizing with empirical results, but even the most shallow hobby article requires that kind of time input.

        That’s before you even consider return visits! tournament theory articles spark return visits to argumue and debate in the comments. Even good narrative articles are unlikely to spark more than a ‘this is cool’ reaction, after which you’ve already seen it, so why come back?

        So basically, tournament theory-hammer articles are faster, cheaper, more widely applicable, and generate repeat views; while hobby & narrative articles are slower, more expensive, usually even less useful, and don’t bring repeat views.

        There is really no question why a site like this favors the former, even if the readers tend to claim to want the latter. I mean, there are dozens of hobby blogs out there of people just working on their armies, painting models, writing homebrew fluff, adding the occasional battle report. That content exists! There’s piles of it! If you’re not aware of it, then you either haven’t looked, or you’re not really as interested in hobby/narrative content as you think you are.

        • We produce and publish content based on data – what readers SAY they want ≠ what they actually respond to.

          • Pimpcron

            TRUTH

      • benn grimm

        I think the message is getting across though, I’ve noticed a slight change in tone regarding this sort of thing over the last few months. Like they know we know and they want to let us know they know without saying they know… Yknow? 😉 I dunno how youd run such a thing without ads and I know a lot of blogs dedicated to nonprofit hobby awesomeness die pretty quick. There are a few important exceptions that it would be nice to see featured a bit more here. BoLs is a big success story and the perfect platform for the kind of articles we all want more of. It’s just annoying to see the same rubbish day in day out when it’s pretty obvious there is better content to be had.

    • Pimpcron

      Just from my point of view, my negative articles get way more views than the creative ones that took a lot more time to write. I can’t begin to describe how irritating it is to spend several hours on an original and creative article and get 10 comments. Then write a piece with only complaining and have 100 comments. What I really enjoy about writing for this site is the comments on my articles, and when nobody does, it makes me not want to be creative anymore. Same goes for WAAC articles, everyone says they hate them, but flock to them and generate views and ad income. What would you post more of?
      Now, whether or not people actually like my creative stuff is another thing all together. 😀

      • benn grimm

        People do love a good moan I suppose. I can imagine it must be annoying. You make a good point and I get it, conflict generates interest. But creativity feeds the soul, so keep on doing what you do. It is appreciated. 🙂

        • Pimpcron

          Then be sure to comment! I’m blackmailing you now. 😛

          • benn grimm

            Lol, I’ll do my best, Fridays are manic days generally, but yeah, if I don’t, just assume I loved/hated it so much I just had nothing that could possibly be added; you literally used all the good/bad words…;)

  • TheMCP Angel

    So, it carries a model with the and keywords. A Leviathan Dread has both, so it can carry him. Am i correct, or is this contested?

    • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

      I would say no, as most other Dreadnought delivery systems can’t, but I don’t work for FW.

      • Maitre Lord Ironfist

        The Keywords match, therfore it can. Easy as that.

    • Horus84cmd

      I as it stands I believe yes as Lord Ironfist points out the keywords all line up. However, I can see it being clarified in a future FAQ if enough people ask about it.

  • BigGrim

    Not sure why BoLS is trying to push this as some big thing. It’s a purely tourney level thing. And a pretty toxic one at that. Stop bringing attention to it. Tourney players are fine. I’ve done to plenty of tournies and had a blast. Only a few times have I come across “Those guys” and I just got it over as quickly as possible. They are not indicative of average tournament players, regardless of what some people/sources say.

    • Karru

      Exactly. Tournament player does not equal do*chebag. I know many players who frequent tournaments for various reasons other than the actual winning of the said tournament. Many go there to try and compete for the “Best Painted Army” award or even just to see how their own skills add up.

      I personally have no interest in tournaments for two reasons. First is the highly competitive nature of the event. Most people still came there to win, simple as that. Sportsmanship isn’t mandatory in most events and doesn’t earn you anything, expect possibly a disadvantage because you allow someone to fix their slight mistake. This doesn’t mean they are do*chbags, if you attend a tournament, make sure you understand what the whole point of attending one is.

      The second reason is the repetitiveness there. Again, while lists like these are considered “A-hole”-style, it is not really that uncommon style. If an army shows a very strong tactic/list, you will see that list repeated over and over and over again with minor alterations at best. Again, they came there to win the tournament or at least have a shot at the tournament, don’t expect people to play suboptimal units.

      • Bootneck

        In most tourneys at WHW you can’t win overall if don’t get favourite game votes, as they are usually used as point multipliers. All the socially inept people hate it as you have to have a rapport with your opponent. Even if they win 5/5 games.

    • Well…where I am the tourney level stuff is also how our casual games are played. So this leaks into our casual gaming too in some cases.

    • Bootneck

      I’d say thats pretty spot on comment. I play at WHW in tournys fairly regularly with upto 100 players, rarely do you see some cheesy neckbeard list like that, and majority of players try to bring fluffy and balanced armies.

      • Zingbaby

        Not to say all tournament players are a problem, cuz they’re clearly not… but in the US we have quite a bit more than “a few” of “Those guys” at tournaments.

  • el_tigre

    You guys know the new codex is out in like a week, right? You posted 18 articles about it this week, right? So unless you’re going to a tournament this weekend, probably not an issue.

    Stormraven spam and you until next Sunday!

    • SprinkKnoT

      Grey Knights and Blood Angels do not use the new book. They will be using the index for at least a few more weeks.

  • Horus84cmd

    Again with this urrrrrrrrrgh.

  • orionburn

    Let’s just admit how this all really works – once the warehouse gets rid of its overstock of Stormravens it’ll get nerfed and the next vehicle that hasn’t been selling well will be top dog. 😀

    Don’t worry little Vespids, one day you’ll be the most killiest of killy things in 40k! lol

    • Zingbaby

      LOL vespid is the next Wraithknight!

  • R. Fernandes

    I’m sure that they can come up with some kind of rule to negate this, I mean….I have no means to speak on the tournament scene I mean, won’t they always find the most optimal lists regardless of what gets fixed?

    • NNextremNN

      Yes they will this is just the favourite of the month.

  • Chad Underdonk

    Meh, I just spam Firedragons in cover. It seems to work.

  • I like the old magic the gathering ‘no more than 4’ of the same card. There has to be an application in 40k.

    • Zingbaby

      This touches upon why “WAAC” players are often met with hatred – they do something totally obnoxious to ‘Win at toys!’ and the rest of us deal with the consequences of new limitations.

      • When I run into players who bring a tournament army to a pick-up game , I just make the game miserable for them.take 40 minutes to do a turn, look up and stare at as many rules as I can ..etc. then once they are super frustrated, I start telling them the back story of each model(just make it up). This way I keep them from preying on the kids who are just learning.

        • Derek Lee

          Obligatory “not all heroes wear capes” reply.

        • Xodis

          How deliciously evil lol

          Do they at least warn you its a Beat Stick army made for Tournaments, or do they just hope you dont notice?

        • NNextremNN

          Genius idea XD

  • Horus84cmd

    Got to love army lists (any) that fundamentally rely going first to win; loads of tactical skill involved in that..

    • Parthis

      Quite. Many tournament packs are now adopting a roll-off for first turn (with +1 to the person who finishes deploying first). Knowing you’ll go first before you even leave the house is poor.

  • Commissar Molotov

    “If a list like this makes you want to avoid tournaments…”

    I have yet to see a tourney list that doesn’t. Especially fluff-crushing ones like eight Nurgle flying daemon princes and a whole bunch of Tzeentchian brimstone horrors… *gags*

    • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

      Make it more balanced by taking Belakor, 2 unmarked HQs, a Blightbringer, and a Lord of Skulls. TacRes all the rest for summoning.

  • Carey_Mahoney

    In days when high-profile tournament players consider three Knights & Guiliman a solid, viable competitive army, Storm Raven spam seems to be the more appealing choice if you still want to speak of players fielding actual “armies”.

  • Oggthrok

    Oh, cool, I guess I should finally assemble my Stormraven…

  • snakechisler

    Limit it to 3 flyers 1 LOW etc.. No one wants to play against knight spam raven spam or baneblade spam we were hoping 8th would open the game up to the general gamer. If tournaments can’t come up with reasonable limitations then it’s same old exclusive rubbish at we saw in 7th

    • Chad Underdonk

      Don’t even have to do that. Tournament Organizers can just limit players to any 1 formation.

      Wham, Bam, Done!

  • Bootneck

    I don’t really see this as a problem one way or another, GW make the rules and broken/bugged/flawed etc we play them and its a level playing field on that basis. What I don’t like is looking forward to a game and getting rinsed in turn 1, I find that a waste of my time which is precious, don’t care if i lose or win.

    The other thing people seem to have over looked is – has anyone thought GW has purposely let these op combinations happen because commercially it sells them kits?

    Plus the kits that were unpopular in 7th and been gathering dust in there warehouses are now suddenly better? Is that a coincidence or clever marketing and strategy. Pyrovores, T Warrios, Ravenours, CSM Zerkers, Lord of Skulls, Scourges etc

  • highwind

    Most play-tested-for-balance edition EVER!!!

    • Zingbaby

      Ha.

    • NNextremNN

      You know what’s sad?
      That statement was true 😉
      The others haven’t been tested at all.

  • lunahula .

    Luckily I will never encounter this issue as by the time I get things painted to a standard I am happy with we will be well into 9th edition where grots and necron scarabs are the most dangerous overpowered units in the game.

  • Dave Satterthwaite

    I think there is a major issue here that people are not quite getting.

    Not all tournament players are toxic neckbeard shutins who want to purchase a victory to make up for years of childhood insecurity.

    but

    Toxic neckbeard shutins who want to purchase a victory to make up for years of childhood insecurity are all tournament players.

  • Ronin

    Ok seriously. Who’s actually run into 5 stormravens here and doesn’t go to a WAAC tournament? I hardly ever see one stormraven except the single one I bring occasionally.

  • Snord

    Minimal Scout squads in Stormravens, led by the head of the Chapter. Brilliant – that must have taken all of 3 minutes to conceive. If you’re the kind of person who thinks that this list is actually fun to use or remotely consistent with the background to the game, then good luck to you. But let’s not pretend that fielding this kind of nonsense is any indication of a player’s ability.

  • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

    Grey Knights list should more correctly be called Imperium, because Acolytes aren’t Space Marines, let alone Grey Knights.

  • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

    Plasmaceptors gonna eat that list for lunch, especially when backed up by Vanguard Vets with Hammers and Inferno Pistols.

    • highwind

      They dont

      Normal Plasma shots dont do enough damage, overcharged plasma kills the shooter easily because of the -1 to hit oft the Stormraven

      Vanguard Vets have a single chance of charging after deep striking and that chance is less than 50% because of the charge range… After that the Stormraven keeps kiting Vanguards till the end of the game

      • 301stFeinminsterArmoured

        On a 1 or 2. Which I can cancel out with a Captain.

  • MechBattler

    Now EVERYONE is a hellturkey.

    They didn’t need to throw weapon facing out because armor facing went away.

    They can’t seem to make an improvement without shooting themselves in foot with something else. What is wrong with these guys?

  • Josh Felstead

    “Might of”, “it’s plasma” – oh dear, we have another illiterate BolS writer…